Summoning Ikiryo

[G Sauce]

Gang please help.  AFriend, who is giving me a migraine at this point, is emphatic that Ikiryo can only be summoned once per game because rare 1. I maintain that means 1 Ikiryo on the table at a time and she can be resummoned by malevolence after being killed and/ or sacrificed.

he dismisses the wiki, the posts on the forums all talking about how Ikiryo plays, how do I show him he is mistaken and the entire rest of the community plays the way I maintain, one at a time but multiple summons per game if malevolence is met.

Thanks in advance.

[solkan]

3 hours ago, G Sauce said:

The characteristics rules for rare I believe.  That and the fact he didn't expect Ikiryo in hans' face turn 1.  Other then that I am baffled.

As far as I can tell, there's a fairly direct thing you can do.  Tell your friend that they have two options:

1.  Present a convincing argument to you for how somehow Yan Lo's Ancestor summoning; Ashes and Dust; and Ikiryo don't work as described "everywhere".

2.  Accept Ikiryo's summoning works as described "everywhere"

and you won't play until one or the other result.

That's the only useful response I can think of to the claim that everyone else is wrong concerning Ikiryo.  Because the alternative is that you simply don't play the friend.

 

[Adran]

While we're looking at models that wouldn't work with his interpretation of Rare one, can I suggest looking at the Dreamer who is forced to summon Chompybits (who is rare 1)

[solkan]

7 hours ago, G Sauce said:

Gang please help.  AFriend, who is giving me a migraine at this point, is emphatic that Ikiryo can only be summoned once per game because rare 1. I maintain that means 1 Ikiryo on the table at a time and she can be resummoned by malevolence after being killed and/ or sacrificed.

he dismisses the wiki, the posts on the forums all talking about how Ikiryo plays, how do I show him he is mistaken and the entire rest of the community plays the way I maintain, one at a time but multiple summons per game if malevolence is met.

Thanks in advance.

Ask them to explain how how the Ashes and Dust model works according to their understanding of the rules.

The particular sequence:

• Ashes and Dust is Rare 1.
• When Ashes and Dust is killed or sacrificed, two models are summoned, Dust Storm and Ashen Core.   This happens due to the Desolate Core ability.
• When the two models that are summoned meet at the center of the table, they sacrifice (Dust Storm sacrifices Ashen Core and then sacrifices itself) and summon Ashes and Dust (which creates a new Ashes and Dust model). 

Note that Ashes and Dust doesn't stop itself from being killed or sacrificed.  And the action which summons Ashes and Dust says specificially:

Quote

(0) Initiate Reformation: Target friendly Ashen Core in base contact gains the following Ability for the rest of the game: "Armor +1: Reduce all damage suffered by this model by +1, to a minimum of 1." If the target is still in play at the end of the Turn, summon an Ashes and Dust into base contact with it, attach up to one Upgrade from the Ashen Core to the Ashes and Dust, then sacrifice the Ashen Core. Sacrifice this model after taking this Action.

"summon an Ashes and Dust", so that it's not trying to bring the previous model back.

Edit:  If references are needed, Ashes and Dust is an Outcast model, page 204 of Crossroads. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by solkan

[Bengt]

The rules for summoning on page 51 (60 in manual):

"A Crew may never exceed a model’s Rare limit through summoning. If, for example, an Action would summon a Rare 1 model into a Crew when the Crew already has a copy of that model on the table, the effect that summons the model fails."

Note the "...a copy of that model on the table..." bit.

The Characteristics rules (page 54/65) for "Rare" is a bit more vague, and could be interpreted one way or the other, lucky we can fall back on the summon rules.

The Hire rules (page 72/91) for "Rare" doesn't mention summoning at all.

All other instances of rare refer to upgrades or are the normal English word, not the rule term, e.g. "Some rare mechanics may reference the model’s name.".

What does your friend base his interpretation on?

[Durza]

Also have a look at Yan lo and his Reliquary upgrade, it allows him to summon back each ancestor who died that game back once, all the models he can summon back are rare 1, and there is no text saying anything about ignoring the rare limit.

[G Sauce]

The characteristics rules for rare I believe.  That and the fact he didn't expect Ikiryo in hans' face turn 1.  Other then that I am baffled.

[Morgan Vening]

Everyone else has good ideas, and I'll add just one more little tidbit.

What's the point of On the Wind, if not to remove it so it can be resummoned?

[Hateful Darkblack]

Ask your opponent to switch Crews for one game and see what he says afterward.

[sharpobjects]

On 5/16/2016 at 1:01 AM, Bengt said:

The rules for summoning on page 51 (60 in manual):

"A Crew may never exceed a model’s Rare limit through summoning. If, for example, an Action would summon a Rare 1 model into a Crew when the Crew already has a copy of that model on the table, the effect that summons the model fails."

Note the "...a copy of that model on the table..." bit.

 

 

The above rules quote is the answer. 

 

Rare = X is for two things. Hiring no more than the X amount and summoning no more than the X amount onto the table. 

for example; when I summon 2 Hanged which are rare 2, I cannot summon anymore until one of them dies. If both are killed on a given turn I can resummon 2 more, etc.

If I summon 2 Hanged and both live for the entire game then I can never summon another Hanged for the rest of the game. 

That is why Ikiryo has her (0) action to remove herself from the table. So she can be resummoned through Malevolence again during the same turn. It costs the Kirai player resources to do so. 

Another example is the Dreamer constantly summoning in Coppelious and or Lelu and Lelitu. Those models have a Rare limit and they can keep coming back as long as they keep dying and the Dreamer has the resources to keep summoning them back in.