I'm looking for a single Arcanists crew as a change to my Outcasts - tell me about Toni Ironsides!

[apes-ma]

I am pretty new to the game, and I have invested my energies into the Outcasts. HOWEVER, I have a few spare ££ this month, and I feel like having a 50SS crew in a different faction to have a good game with now and again, especially one with some cool models that are a bit different to the Outcast (and a few Ressur) models that I have been painting recently. I really like the look of all the odels in the Ironsides box, and I love the idea of this scrappy master in the middle of a riot, riling up the enemy, riling up her allies, biting off more than she can chew and brawling. The thing is, it seems like the consensus is that Ironsides is pretty bad. I know that there is a difference between "unplayable" bad, and "don't take this to a tournament" bad, and my question is would the following be a fun crew to play every now and again as a change from my Outcasts? I don't want to get into the Arcanists (yet?) or spend a lot of dosh messing around with crew options, I just want a fun crew to crack out every now and again!

I was thinking I'd buy the Ironsides box, and a box of Gunsmiths and call it a day. Running all the contents of the box (Ironsides (with Challenge the Crowd, Iron Determination and Warding Runes), Mouse, 3 Oxfordian Mages (one Ward each), The Captain (with Warding Runes? I wouldn't be able to fit on patron's Blessing unless I drop a model or an upgrade elsewhere.)) and two Gunsmiths would put me at 50SS with a 5SS cache. Is there a better way to build a good fun all around crew for Toni?

[retnab]

Ironsides is fun but she likes to get into situations that might get her killed.  The advice that helped me with her the most is to play her like a bully, not a bruiser.  She wants to be in the middle of a melee but not with things that can actually hurt her.  Try to get Ironsides in melee with the enemy's support and gunner models and never let them out.  Her box is good and I like everything in it (except Mouse who I'm still on the fence over) but I'm not sure two Gunsmiths is a good idea seeing how they can be card greedy.

[Jordon]

Glad to see more interest into Ironsides. Don't listen to what others may say about her, as she is a rock solid master and a total blast to play, and those who say otherwise simply don't understand how to use her effectively. 

I think you made a good call with having the gunsmiths as your second choice as they are extremely effective with Ironsides. From her ability to give burning and pull them around the board without retaliation (potentially gaining fast), they are just awesome utility pieces to have and I will often run her with at least two of them. 

Her box is fine, but I tend to find three Oxfordian mages a bit overkill and will often take 1-2 depending. Some people also like running mouse, but I've stopped taking him entirely as I find they are better uses for 4ss. 

Since you already play Outcasts, I can definitely suggest Johan as an almost auto include because he is amplified so much with Toni. I would also highly recommend Willie because he brings some valuable armour cracking and I don't have to spell out how awesome blast weapons and hand picked men go together like peanut butter and jelly. There are not really any bad M&SU includes for her as Joss/Langston/Rail Golem/S.A.S. are all great elite options. 

There are some great tactics on how to best play her in the Ironsides thread that I highly suggest reading as she can be very misleading for new players. Don't get bogged down with trying to maximize adrenaline. Her versatility is what makes her powerful and she performs better as a support master and a late game brawler than just an outright beater. Good luck and have fun!

[apes-ma]

1 minute ago, retnab said:

Ironsides is fun but she likes to get into situations that might get her killed.  The advice that helped me with her the most is to play her like a bully, not a bruiser.  She wants to be in the middle of a melee but not with things that can actually hurt her.  Try to get Ironsides in melee with the enemy's support and gunner models and never let them out.  Her box is good and I like everything in it (except Mouse who I'm still on the fence over) but I'm not sure two Gunsmiths is a good idea seeing how they can be card greedy.

Thanks for your reply! That is kind of the read I have on her as well (having never played her...), she reminds me of the kid at school that IS hard, but thinks they're even harder than they actually are. What is a good model to use the 7SS a Gunsmith takes up? Or a 5SS model that lets me slap Patron's Blessing on the Captain? Ideally a model that comes in it's own box... if I have to buy another crew box to get one model than my plan to have a single "refresher" crew suddenly becomes "getting into Arcanists"!

[JoeJones]

Steam Arachnids are surprisingly resilient 4ss scheme runners, and come in their own box - which you will need when (not if) you pick up the Ramos box, which also includes two of the most powerful M&SU beaters: Howard Langston and Joss.

Yes, I am assuming that when you start Arcanists, you will have to get a bit more. And more.

[apes-ma]

52 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Glad to see more interest into Ironsides. Don't listen to what others may say about her, as she is a rock solid master and a total blast to play, and those who say otherwise simply don't understand how to use her effectively. 

I think you made a good call with having the gunsmiths as your second choice as they are extremely effective with Ironsides. From her ability to give burning and pull them around the board without retaliation (potentially gaining fast), they are just awesome utility pieces to have and I will often run her with at least two of them. 

Her box is fine, but I tend to find three Oxfordian mages a bit overkill and will often take 1-2 depending. Some people also like running mouse, but I've stopped taking him entirely as I find they are better uses for 4ss. 

Since you already play Outcasts, I can definitely suggest Johan as an almost auto include because he is amplified so much with Toni. I would also highly recommend Willie because he brings some valuable armour cracking and I don't have to spell out how awesome blast weapons and hand picked men go together like peanut butter and jelly. There are not really any bad M&SU includes for her as Joss/Langston/Rail Golem/S.A.S. are all great elite options. 

There are some great tactics on how to best play her in the Ironsides thread that I highly suggest reading as she can be very misleading for new players. Don't get bogged down with trying to maximize adrenaline. Her versatility is what makes her powerful and she performs better as a support master and a late game brawler than just an outright beater. Good luck and have fun!

This is great, thanks! I just think she's such a cool character, and I really like all the models in her box and so on - and I like to play models I like over models that are the best. This seems like great advice, thanks - I think Troubleshooters + Gunsmiths seems like a good bet then. Johan seems like a good fit, you're right. If I dropped a mage (the one I'd put Nemesis Ward on, I reckon) and Mouse I could fit Johan in, and put Patron's Blessing on the Captain - alternatively I could drop the Mage, drop Warding Runes on the Captain and take Mouse to fit Johan in (both times having 2 Gunsmiths). Obviously I can experiment with both, but do you have a hunch as to the more flexible/better version? Willie seems great, but I don't want to drop to much cash on this project right now (which definitely rules out Howard/Joss/Rail Golem etc.) and I feel like the Gunsmiths are a better addition to the crew box than Willie, if you factor in only buying one other box.

Do you think Frontline Leadership is a better upgrade to run than Challenge the Crowd or Iron Determination? I feel like with 2-3 Mages (which I will be running since I don't want to buy much more than the crew box + one other box) it is worth running Warding Runes for the counterspell and the regeneration especially, but I only went with Challenge the Crowd and Iron Determination since they seem great for increased survivability. I can see how Frontline Leadership is a good way to build up Adrenaline (since it doesn't require AP or suits), but I also feel like with the Gunsmiths "Switch Chambers" ability AND Frontline Leadeship I will be putting too much pressure on my hand. I hadn't really given much thought to Message from The Union. Having a second look at the Gunsmiths it definitely pairs very well with them, but I wonder if dropping the more tanky upgrades from Toni in order to have another source of burning for the Gunsmiths might be a mistake, given that the Mages and the Captain can both hand out burning, and so can the Gunsmiths themselves with their defensive trigger (although I don't think I should consider this in my gameplan, but just as a bonus). It also seems next to useless once Toni is engaged, but then again, it seems like it might be useful in the first turn or two before I'd WANT Toni to be engaged. What do you think about Message From the Union?

EDIT: What about Imbued Protection? I feel like Challenge the Crowd is going to be better than this in most situations - a double + flip to defense seems more usefuul than a defense of 6 considering she'll likely be engaged when it matters?

[hippodruid]

Challenge the Crowd is almost an auto-pick for me.  I typically take Toni if I want to use her ability to survive in the thick of it for a while, so I want those flips so I can choose to have a nasty attack miss or get , or so that I can let a weak attack through with a low and gain some Adrenaline.  For Frontline Leadership, I've found that Protective does cause a bit of drain on my hand, but I really like it for Come Get Some.  I most often have a hard time choosing between Frontline and Iron Determination, because dumping a stack of Adrenaline into healing is great, as is making your opponent reflip the Red Joker.

Also, don't worry too much about having a set list.  Some of my best games with Ironsides have been without a single Oxfordian Mage on the table, while my best game included two.  Thinking that you need the Mages is a bit of a trap.  Feel around and find other stuff that works with her. @JoeJones noted the humble Steam Arachnid, which is a surprisingly good piece with Ironsides.  Typically if I'm not fielding Mages, I'll go with Johan and the Arcane Effigy to help mitigate conditions (and because Toni with flaming fists is pretty funny).  I also find that I rarely take Mouse, but a lot of that is because I don't have mine painted up yet, to my shame, but when he's combined with Frontline Leadership, he can cause some serious card drain on models trying to move near Toni.

[Jordon]

2 hours ago, apes-ma said:

Do you think Frontline Leadership is a better upgrade to run than Challenge the Crowd or Iron Determination? I feel like with 2-3 Mages (which I will be running since I don't want to buy much more than the crew box + one other box) it is worth running Warding Runes for the counterspell and the regeneration especially, but I only went with Challenge the Crowd and Iron Determination since they seem great for increased survivability. I can see how Frontline Leadership is a good way to build up Adrenaline (since it doesn't require AP or suits), but I also feel like with the Gunsmiths "Switch Chambers" ability AND Frontline Leadeship I will be putting too much pressure on my hand. I hadn't really given much thought to Message from The Union. Having a second look at the Gunsmiths it definitely pairs very well with them, but I wonder if dropping the more tanky upgrades from Toni in order to have another source of burning for the Gunsmiths might be a mistake, given that the Mages and the Captain can both hand out burning, and so can the Gunsmiths themselves with their defensive trigger (although I don't think I should consider this in my gameplan, but just as a bonus). It also seems next to useless once Toni is engaged, but then again, it seems like it might be useful in the first turn or two before I'd WANT Toni to be engaged. What do you think about Message From the Union?

EDIT: What about Imbued Protection? I feel like Challenge the Crowd is going to be better than this in most situations - a double + flip to defense seems more usefuul than a defense of 6 considering she'll likely be engaged when it matters?

One of the best/worst things about Toni is the value of upgrades. There always seems like 4-5 upgrades you'll want to be taking, but obviously you can only fit 3 (well 4 if you run with killswitch). The benefit of this however is that you can drastically shape how you want her to be played. I find this more relevant on Ironsides than any other master I've played in the arcanists. Obviously you'll find a preference on your particular play style once you start experimenting and getting some games under your belt. She can make some really great use from some of the generic arcanists upgrades, but I'm not sure your budget and if your planning on getting these upgrades or not. 

So there are really two primary play styles and you can mix and match between them both to fit your particular need in any given scenario. You can go the melee route and try to maximize with adrenaline and overall survivability - Or you can do the support route and focus more on maximizing hand picked men. The awesome thing about Ironsides is that your never really locked into either and I find my best results is when I try and do both with an early game support and late game ass kicker. You just need to know her strengths and limitations and pick fights that will yield the best results. Don't try to pick a fight with Levi/Justice/Viks - she is pretty tough, but it a dedicated brawler will still make very short work of her. 

When playing her primarily as a support model, i'll often run her with Warding Runes (with 1-2 mages), Message from the union (an under appreciated ranged attack), arcane reservoir and either frontline leadership (its easy to build adrenaline when playing as support) or Iron determination (for the heal).

When playing her more aggressive I'll run her with Challenge the crowd, sometimes warding runes, seize the day (initiative can be critical for ironsides) recharge soulstone (because she's good at killing weak models and can often be stone intensive) and either Iron determination or frontline leadership for early adrenaline.      

[Fog]

Ironsides is the most underrated master in town.

 

i seldom take Frontline leadership as I find it eats too many cards to get much value.  I typically run with challenge the crowd and warding runes, with the third based on my potential gameplay.  

I love Mouse.  He can, first turn, get two models moved into position and down that single wound, plus having another heal is always nice.  Johan is almost an auto include. The rest of the team changes as I need it.  

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that Ironsides is good enough a Master but Arcanists in general have such top-notch Masters that she is a bit overshadowed. If she were a Guild Master, for example, she would rank solidly middle of the pack as opposed to being on the bottom like she is in the Arcanists (or who do people consider being worse in the Arcanists? Kaeris?).

As for the Gunsmiths - they are nice enough with Toni but coupled with her box it makes for a pretty weird crew. You have mainly just ranged options which can make many Schemes and Strategies quite difficult to say the least. I would suggest getting the Large Arachnids (out next month). They are very solid pieces and shine with Toni (that Severe damage of 6 is pretty scary when you can get two extra positives to damage flips).

I also really like Angelica with Toni but that might also be because I like the Large Arachnids and am not a huge fan of the Captain.

[Eclipse]

Yeah, for Arcanists Ironsides and Kaeris are considered bad although they are fun and solid Masters with strengths of their own right. Madness, I tell you.

A friend plays Ironsides with Gunsmiths (actually, he plays everything with Gunsmiths) and it seemed to be a pretty fun crew. What he does is push into my territory - shoot with the Gunsmiths and then charge them in, pull Toni inside the brawl and cast from behind with the Mages. This frees the Captain to go from support to scheme running and the occasional beating (though he was quickly replaced with the Blessed of December). Not the most dedicated to scheme running per se, but still gets the job done. Well, the fact that he has all Arcanist models that are out (or almost all?) certainly means that he can pick his fights with Ironsides, though.

[Breng77]

Having played her a few times now with GG2016, I think Ironsides got a significant boost in the new scheme pool.  Her ability to lock down several enemy models is very nice.  I highly recommend taking willie with her as she can group up a bunch of enemies and the willie can charge in and blast away thanks to HPM.  I do think she is strategy dependent though as she works far better in strategies that force crews into the center.

[Jordon]

14 hours ago, Breng77 said:

Having played her a few times now with GG2016, I think Ironsides got a significant boost in the new scheme pool.  Her ability to lock down several enemy models is very nice.  I highly recommend taking willie with her as she can group up a bunch of enemies and the willie can charge in and blast away thanks to HPM.  I do think she is strategy dependent though as she works far better in strategies that force crews into the center.

I agree with this. Having assassinate removed from the suited scheme's is absolutely huge as Ironsides tends to get herself killed by virtue of her play style.  

[Breng77]

To me it is more than that even.  More schemes now force crews to interact and move forward.  she is very good at exhaust their forces and the new distract.  She is good at marked for death. Deliver the message is gone.  Most scheme marker schemes now need you to be in your opponents half, often for a long while.  Several schemes force enemies into the center, which means more enemies grouped up for her.  I think the 2015 stratus also help her.  She is good at guard the stash, extraction, and head hunter.  Arguably not very good at the other 2.   From the originals in would say she is good at turf war, and reckoning.  Decent at squatters rights depending on terrain.

[Forgotmytea]

7 hours ago, Breng77 said:

To me it is more than that even.  More schemes now force crews to interact and move forward.  she is very good at exhaust their forces and the new distract.  She is good at marked for death. Deliver the message is gone.  Most scheme marker schemes now need you to be in your opponents half, often for a long while.  Several schemes force enemies into the center, which means more enemies grouped up for her.  I think the 2015 stratus also help her.  She is good at guard the stash, extraction, and head hunter.  Arguably not very good at the other 2.   From the originals in would say she is good at turf war, and reckoning.  Decent at squatters rights depending on terrain.

I always found her to be great at Reconnoiter too, as she can just sit in the middle of the board and pull them in to the non-scoring 'dead zone' with You Lookin' At Me? Usually with Bring It! and Iron Determination for those and the (0) heal. Then the rest of the crew can run around the board scoring as needed

-Ben

[Breng77]

The issue is range on the ability to pull those models, if they have short or no charge it does not really work well.  If they have movement tricks it doesn't work well.  Also Ramos exists in faction and recon/interference are super easy for him.  It is not that she is especially bad at recon, but it doesn't really play to her strength as enemies are spread out, as is your crew.

[Fog]

I recently played Toni into the Viks in headhunter. It did not go well for the Viks.

First turn my two fast gunsmiths shot Taelor off the board. With the movement tricks you bring to the fight I find it is usually easy to be up a model early.

Turn three, ironsides killed Vanessa and Blood by using her amazing zero to jump from one to the other. Johan and the Captain were keeping the center board locked down with a pair of 3" hammers while my mage picked up heads.

I used the various lures and pushes the crew has to keep my opponent from being able to concentrate his forces in any one place and used wind walls to stymie charges.

It was a 10-3 win over the top outcast player in the area.