Getting Jack to Work

[FacelessOne]

Less setup than you would think. With writhing torment you have free pushes to hand out, and Jacks zero to push all tormented models with 8 towards target tormented model. That's 7" of free pushes. Pretty effective in close deployment as well as strategies which focus on a central point.

[the proxy union]

Ok, so I have been trying to run through what works with Jack and when. so far I have been been dividing crew choices into 2 general piles; combat related schemes/strats, and mobility/marker related schemes/strats. for a list playing towards the first group I'm looking for things that will stack damage onto models like Lazarus, Sue, and convict gunslingers. and guys/gals that will stop my opponent for doing the same [librarian, johan, jakuna, and nurses]. with this type of scenario I would be using jack as a pure support piece to launch curses onto enemy models and follow it up with crew attacks.

if i need a list for the second type of objectives i would likely forgo taking expensive heavy hitters [ well... maybe ashes and dust.] or only take one expensive model. the rest of the crew would be made up of cheap guys with either movement or control abilities/attacks. i.e. nurses, ronin(disguised), librarian, jakuna, and hard to kill guys.

when i hit a scheme pool that is in line with the strategy then this works really well; the problem comes when there is an awkward mix [about half the time for me] I need to choose and build to certain schemes before I see my opponents crew. I know we do this with every master in every game, but with Jack I feel that I need to build harder towards said schemes while going in blind to the match-up.

additionally the crews i end up taking with him are more elite with fewer ap than most other lists i am used to playing; this means each model needs to do more in order to equal the output i usually get with either ; the vikks, vonschill, or lillith where i can run 8-9 models with scheme runners rather than 7 ish with no summoning unless i drop a significant chunk of points on a rat engine. 

currently, my solution is to try to pick at least one scheme that is congruent with the strategy and build hard to that scheme and the strategy, and then leave myself open to be able to play the other three schemes. 

*

In case there is any confusion in what I am talking about concerning building to objectives with jack; I find it difficult to construct lists for games with awkward schemepools for a given strat.

examples:

reconoiter: ALITS, breakthrough, assassinate, take prisoner, cursed object

squaters rights: ALITS, bodyguard, spring the trap, assassinate, deliver the message

reckoning/head hunter etc: ALITS, protect territory, bodyguard, distract, entourage

 

with games like this I feel like I can take the strat and one scheme solidly but scheme choice #2 throws me off. with other masters I can build to the schemes easier and build the flexibility in to block the more likely choice in schemes my opponent will take. with jack, I'm down one to two models which limits my ability to get things done vs higher model count crews. also, due to the nature of the crew, i feel that becomes harder to split my attention around the board and take care of multiple pockets of resistance that i am used to doing with lilith/ schill/collodi/hamelin. that being said, jack can easily do almost any scheme pool well. I am just having trouble finding that sweet spot where he shines.

-proxy

[Khoregard]

I'm typing this up on my phone so it'll be short and sweet. I understand what you're saying and I feel the crunch of a bad or mismatched scheme pool every time I play. Jack is good as a control piece because it should be obvious no opponent wants to be near 8" to him. My solution to your dilemma is to consider outlier choices, like the hodgepodge emissary or nix. Jack doesn't lack for mobility and because his shtick curses doesn't require any synergy to be effective, I've taken him in all sorts of mishmash missions where I'm not certain who as a master would be efficient. It's almost liberating!

[FacelessOne]

 

examples:

reconoiter: ALITS, breakthrough, assassinate, take prisoner, cursed object

squaters rights: ALITS, bodyguard, spring the trap, assassinate, deliver the message

reckoning/head hunter etc: ALITS, protect territory, bodyguard, distract, entourage

 

Reconnoiter is a strategy traditional Jack crews struggle with due his desire you be bunched up. I tend to take one of the freikorps sisters (Hannah or Anna) and build around them as they both operate independently well and can synergize on their own. That said i find marker schemes to be great with Jack (along with deliver the message) due to all the movement shenanigans he has. Also with oath keeper, crooked men, the drowned, Sue, and his own native zero your own model's deaths can further those schemes. His easy access to Crossroads Seven models also lets him hinder enemy scheme marker schemes due to Envy and Gluttony's maker manipulation, and Sloths and Lusts movement control.

Jack like many outcast masters is also hard to remove so you can make it very hard to assassinate him. Similarly his movement shenanigans make it easy to get models into the enemies half of the board for schemes like breakthrough and entourage.

[moxypoo]

with games like this I feel like I can take the strat and one scheme solidly but scheme choice #2 throws me off. with other masters I can build to the schemes easier and build the flexibility in to block the more likely choice in schemes my opponent will take. with jack, I'm down one to two models which limits my ability to get things done vs higher model count crews. also, due to the nature of the crew, i feel that becomes harder to split my attention around the board and take care of multiple pockets of resistance that i am used to doing with lilith/ schill/collodi/hamelin. that being said, jack can easily do almost any scheme pool well. I am just having trouble finding that sweet spot where he shines.

-proxy

Some advice I got when I first started playing Jack was not to think about how you could score 10VP, but how to stop your opponent from scoring any VP at all. I worded that in an extreme manner for effect, but a more realistic way to think about it is: how can I focus on denial rather than focus on scoring points myself. Unlike all the other masters in the game, Jack excels at forcing the opponent to make really poor choices and then capitalizing, while simultaneously locking down enemy models.

Basically, I'm trying to say: consider which schemes you can make difficult or impossible for your opponent, while squeaking out some VP here and there. This playstyle probably won't work for everyone, but I've had some good success with it!

[Pip]

Excellent discussion. I've probably had about a dozen games with Daw and this thread has given me some "lightbulb" moments. I'm curios as to why Lady Ligiea hasn't been mentioned or included much in peoples lists? Is it because for 4 SS, 3 wounds (incoporeal) and 3" no cheat aura that people find her cost to high for a totem that people REALLY want to get rid of? Granted, you do have to be careful with her but I've a great success with her in the games I've played.

Thoughts?

Pip.

[daniello_s]

I think combination of cost and squishiness makes her less desirable in already soulstone stretched Jack' crew. Her no-cheat aura is great but she is extremely vulnerable and easy to be killed. For same cost you can take much needed objective runner (void wretch/winged plague) or for 1SS more you can have Nurse.

If she was at 3SS then I might think about taking her from time to time. Or maybe if she had some high Manipulative when being at cost of 4SS.

[Bodiless]

4ss+3w=nope

[Pip]

I think combination of cost and squishiness makes her less desirable in already soulstone stretched Jack' crew. Her no-cheat aura is great but she is extremely vulnerable and easy to be killed. For same cost you can take much needed objective runner (void wretch/winged plague) or for 1SS more you can have Nurse.

If she was at 3SS then I might think about taking her from time to time. Or maybe if she had some high Manipulative when being at cost of 4SS.

Fair call too. You do have to get her in the thick of things which does leave her exposed. However, Df 6 I find more than enough to keep her intact until I need her to swing the game for me. Wp duels are a different story but overall I think I've used her well enough. I'm not saying she survives every game, but more than once she's saved a valuable model from being killed as well as allowing me to remove or neutralize one of my opponents key models. I tend to bring her out late as some of my opponents forget she's on the table. But, like all models/abilities, you have to use them at the right time. I'll keep using her for now. However, from what I've read on this thread so far, it looks as if I'm gonna need to sacrifice something to use what people have suggested. I guess when that happens I'll know for sure if my play style can do with out her. Cheers daniello_s

Pip.

[Rogue1]

I find she is very matchup dependant.  Against more melee heavy crews she does fine and can occasionally swing an entire game.  However, against ranged heavy crews she is too easily killed at a distance.

[daniello_s]

Anything which puts conditions (burning, poison) is her nightmare too.

[moxypoo]

I find she is very matchup dependant.  Against more melee heavy crews she does fine and can occasionally swing an entire game.  However, against ranged heavy crews she is too easily killed at a distance.

This. If you suspect you'll be playing a melee crew, it's generally worth taking her every time.  Keep in mind which models can kill her easily and keep her away and out of LoS if possible. I often like to take a big, tough 50mm/Ht3 model like the Strongarm Suit to hide her behind. In my experience, Liega is best used as a scalpel rather than a sledgehammer - don't put her into the middle of the enemy crew and expect her to survive.  Instead, choose an enemy model that really needs to die, park her near it, and then do mean things with your other models.

I don't take her if I'm focusing heavily on forcing my opponent to discard since there's anti-synergy there.

It's all about protecting Liega and playing mind games with your opponent. If your opponent puts an inordinate amount of AP into killing her then it's usually SS well spent. I tend to look for one or two game changing moments with Liega than expecting her to survive the entire game.

Edited December 14, 2015 by moxypoo

[valhallan42nd]

I've had success with Lazarus and Papa Loco giving him Dynamite. Tormenting Laz and pushing/obeying him into position, and then having three grenade shots with a positive twist... is just fun.

[the proxy union]

I've done that too. Its fantastic.

[moxypoo]

Another thing about Liega I forgot to mention in my last post is that she can really mess up models that require decently high TNs to cast spells. For example, moving Liega next to a master like Nicodem (and maybe using Defensive stance) who requires moderates or suits to cast his spells can severely hamper his ability to perform any useful actions during his activation.

Edited December 15, 2015 by moxypoo

[Molja]

I've used Ligeia couple of times. I've used her to harass opponents support model or just prevented models from cheating while defending against my hitters. 

We are starting a slow grow league in our area and thought starting with Jackie boy. I'll tell what happens and how Ligeia and Montressor performed after that.