Rurouni Benshin Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Hi all,So what exactly happens if Ashes & Dust has the Oath Keeper upgrade, is killed, and then becomes Ashen Core and Dust Storm?My guess:1) Place Scheme Marker next to Ashes & Dust before the model is removed.2) Place Ashen Core in base contact, and then remove Ashes & Dust. Place Oath Keeper on Ashen Core.3) Place Dust Storm on table in a legal spot.If that is correct, then could Ashes & Dust, in theory, drop multiple Scheme Markers on the table throughout the game?Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxmiles Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Hi all,So what exactly happens if Ashes & Dust has the Oath Keeper upgrade, is killed, and then becomes Ashen Core and Dust Storm?My guess:1) Place Scheme Marker next to Ashes & Dust before the model is removed.2) Place Ashen Core in base contact, and then remove Ashes & Dust. Place Oath Keeper on Ashen Core.3) Place Dust Storm on table in a legal spot.If that is correct, then could Ashes & Dust, in theory, drop multiple Scheme Markers on the table throughout the game?Thanks!Two things. First, the "Amalgamation" rule prevents this model from dropping markers as a result of being killed or sacrificed. So, Ashes and Dust doesn't drop a scheme marker due to being killed, even if you upgrade it.Second, as per the "Desolate Core" rule on Ashes and Dust, you may attach "up to" one upgrade from this model to the newly summoned Desolate Core.That said, Desolate Core also has the Amalgamation rule, so it can't drop any markers either.As I understand it, the only value "Oath Keeper" has on either model is to discard Oath Keeper to give them fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted November 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Hi all,So what exactly happens if Ashes & Dust has the Oath Keeper upgrade, is killed, and then becomes Ashen Core and Dust Storm?My guess:1) Place Scheme Marker next to Ashes & Dust before the model is removed.2) Place Ashen Core in base contact, and then remove Ashes & Dust. Place Oath Keeper on Ashen Core.3) Place Dust Storm on table in a legal spot.If that is correct, then could Ashes & Dust, in theory, drop multiple Scheme Markers on the table throughout the game?Thanks!Two things. First, the "Amalgamation" rule prevents this model from dropping markers as a result of being killed or sacrificed. So, Ashes and Dust doesn't drop a scheme marker due to being killed, even if you upgrade it.Second, as per the "Desolate Core" rule on Ashes and Dust, you may attach "up to" one upgrade from this model to the newly summoned Desolate Core.That said, Desolate Core also has the Amalgamation rule, so it can't drop any markers either.As I understand it, the only value "Oath Keeper" has on either model is to discard Oath Keeper to give them fast.Which actually won't work either, since he's immune to ALL conditions, as per Amalgamation again. So I guess "Oath Keeper" isn't a viable upgrade afterall. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxmiles Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Which actually won't work either, since he's immune to ALL conditions, as per Amalgamation again. So I guess "Oath Keeper" isn't a viable upgrade afterall. Fail. Yeah, right you are. No value to be found in that upgrade on Ashes and Dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Scramble is beautiful though. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryion Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Scramble is beautiful though.Only if you want your opponent to flip the table like a raging baboon. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderwiggin Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 This exact scenario is listed on the wiki as being utterly the most useless upgrade on a model in the game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paxmiles Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Is there a way to benefit merely by being an upgraded model? I seem to recall that one of the models buffs upgraded models, though I don't think their an outcast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 The only one I can think of is Promises which will buff friendly upgraded models (Guild/TT). There is also Rasputina's shatter which will hurt you besed on the number of upgrades on you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted November 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Is there a way to benefit merely by being an upgraded model? I seem to recall that one of the models buffs upgraded models, though I don't think their an outcast.There are quite of a few of these synergies in Ten Thunders, but for Outcast, I don't know of any that exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXXXVIII Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 The big question is... Oath keeper lets you "place" a marker upon death and amalgamation prevents you from "dropping" marker upon death.And dont tell me that dropping and placing is the same thing.Just lemme ask you if I may "place" a Stone on your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 The big question is... Oath keeper lets you "place" a marker upon death and amalgamation prevents you from "dropping" marker upon death.And dont tell me that dropping and placing is the same thing.Just lemme ask you if I may "place" a Stone on your head.I think we're splitting hairs as to what "placing" and "dropping" mean here, but to clarify this further, I went back to the corebook, and found this under "Corpse Markers"."When a model with the Living or Undead characteristic is killed, the model's controller places a Corpse Marker in base contact with the model before it is removed.Corpse Markers are technically dropped by every Living and Undead model when it dies. However, it is not necessary to place these Markers if neither player has a model that would interact with them. Players may safely agree to not have models drop Corpse Markers in games where neither Crew will be making use of them."That's taken straight from the book. (It's also similarly worded under "Scrap Markers" as well, in case you were wondering.) So going by what it says in that text, I'm pretty sure that when the rule was created, "placing" and "dropping" markers are synonymous to each other in what their intended meanings are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurouni Benshin Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 And just as a quick note, assuming he can actually benefit from "Finish the Job", are people really going to put that 1 upgrade on him just for that? Because in all seriousness, there are better ones. "Oath Keeper" has been primarily used for "Fast" in just about every game I've played against and as an Outcast Master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axelst Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Ashes and Dust can die multiple times, so Ashes and Dust could use Oathkeeper to drop several scheme markers, assuming Ashes and Dust can benefit from finish the job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusciousmccabe Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Which it can't. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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