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Guildy Gunsmiths


Trample

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I really both the gunsmiths and the silent ones in the February upcoming releases. Especially the gunsmiths. The gunsmiths do have a different feel to them this time however. The look a bit more old west and a bit less techno-punk. I like them both, but they look like they might fit a tad better with the guild than with the Arcanists.  

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The one thing I'm sad about is how the fluff talks about how each Gunsmith is unique in their own way due to building up their own guns and the potential crazy-style or Tech they put into it.  But these, while amazing looking, just look like people carrying far too many guns, if you catch my meaning.

I mean, they look sweet as hell, and I plan on getting them for sure, but I just wish they had more emphasis on how unique or custom their guns are, rather than looking like walking arsenals.

That said, I will more than likely be looking into options for bitz or attempting to sculpt my own, to create more unique looking guns.

Edited by Tawg
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I don't have a problem with these models at all.. Yes, the female has a very Anime style pose, but I'm okay with that.

Gunsmiths, in the fluff, are like Tawg says... They are customized techy gun people. which just happens to be the style that Guild is. So it's not surprising that they look a little big like a guild member, but I love them.

My love for Stephen Kings "The Tower" makes it so I have a really hard time not liking Gun Slingers. lol 

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I don't mind their guns looking fairly normal, without making clunky "heroic" weapons it's hard to differentiate them much anyway. Besides a gun can be special without looking it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meP_Ufwj-FY

I more disappointed that the woman is breathing through her skin. That combined with Gunsmiths being terrible mechanically I'll probably pass on them.

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 That combined with Gunsmiths being terrible mechanically I'll probably pass on them.

You think so? I find them to be solid in most situations. I would always have at least one with Ironsides or Kaeris and have used them as major components in games before. 

Terrible was hyperbole, but in short I think they need too many cards to compete with December Acolytes.

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Depends on the crew... Gunsmiths are amazing in a Kaeris crew. You're almost guaranteed any trigger you could possibly want and you can dish out a shit ton of damage. Combine that with Hard to Kill and that Smoldering Heart Def Trigger and they are amazing. 

December Acolytes are a completely different game. They don't do nearly the same things as a Gunsmith. 

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I love one or two Gunsmiths in my Kaeris crew. If I can, the Malifaux Child lights them up, then drop a low ram and get fast then activate near GnD Kaeris to get flight and drop a free scheme marker, whether they need to fly 15” or stand on the centre line and fire away. And that’s without factoring in either ++ vs burning or picking your triggers.

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When people talk up Gunsmith they always mysteriously have just the right cards to get all the triggers they want. They always have spare AP to attack their own Gunsmiths with, always low rams for the Fast trigger, either always get just the right high card when using the Hard Way or have the right card to discard for Switch chambers. Every turn. All I can say is that you guys must be really lucky. I'm going to stick with December Acolytes, with their solid damage track, slow and discard, no suits required.

I also don't see how they are completely different. They are variations on damage dealers.

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My campaign crew started with a gunsmith. 4 Shots per turn with fast and rapid fire is not to be sniffed at. There are simple ways to get the ram either by discarding one in their activation turn 1 then targeting them with something after they have finished their activation auto fast for turn two.

 

Lots of models seem subpar when compared to december acolytes, just like lots of 4ss models seem subpar compared to metal gamin.

It doesnt mean they have no use and not every game needs to be hyper competetive. They are fluffy they give bonuses to other models that key off m&su like johan/na and can do some things that mean they are still a decent choice.

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I haven't played a ton, only a little over a dozen games, but I've had a good run with Gunsmiths, including two 'living the dream' games where a gunsmith got hand picked men bonus, fast, and the hard way. He killed things when he activated. It was pretty glorious. Again, I'm new though, so maybe I'll end up slotting him out for something later? I like them though.

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My campaign crew started with a gunsmith. 4 Shots per turn with fast and rapid fire is not to be sniffed at. There are simple ways to get the ram either by discarding one in their activation turn 1 then targeting them with something after they have finished their activation auto fast for turn two.

Since Gunsmiths don't have Rapid Fire I take it that was a Campaign skill? So could have have been applied to any ranged model.

How does when you use it make it any simpler to get a Ram in your hand in the first place?

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It's very rare not to have at least o ram over the course of two turns especially when you play kaeris and take arcane resevoir and stones get used for damage prevention and more cards. I really don't understand the lack of cards in a kaeris crew where most things arent dependant on cards saving rams for gunsmiths, masks for a cerberus' leap or tomes for a rail golem is very easy as long as you know what you want!

Quite right it is an upgrade the bonus being either being able to walk into range first or getting plus flips to ignore cover which the acolyte can't get, so another upside as far as campaigns are concerned.

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I've yet to be impressed with gunsmiths. I've tried them with Kaeris and ironsides, and they were ok, but not stand out in anyway. 

I've not tried all the tricks with them, but I have done a few, such as using ironsides to bring them up and possibly giving them fast. 

Am I prepared to ruin my hand for that fast? No. If its a 7 or higher, I'm probably not going to use it early on on a gunsmith for fast. I might used 7-9 towards the end of turn, when I'm less likely to need them to actually protect me. I also need to look at what the AP I spent to attack them gained me. ironsides "You' looking at me" to move them is good (especially if you get the trigger to move 2) but using Malifaux child to set them on fire for Kaeris is less useful, unless flight or the scheme markers will be usable in the game.

My play style with any of the 3 obvious masters doesn't see Burning as my natural route. If I'm not setting many bad guys on fire, then they don't do as well. I'm not saying its hard to set models on fire, but I'm changing what I do with the rest of my crew to improve these models, so they aren't as effiicent as they may have seemed. 

Likewise I find they spend a lot of time, uninjured, and go very rapidly from there to dead. 

I am in agreement with bengt. Its a nice defence trigger, but I can't garentee getting to use it when I need it the most. I've lost games because Marcus had no tomes to discard to his upgrade for 2 turns running despite Arcane reservoir, and spending stones on cards. Its not a common thing, but I've seen it happen enough to not rely on my hand. 

 

 

My Arachind swarm is walking round with a gatling gun. I think thats much better than a rapid firing Gunsmith, and doesn't require any additional hand support other than the cheating damage which it almost always gets to do thanks to :+fate on both attack and damage. with Sh 6 and a 2/5.6 damage profile. 

 

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If you think a Gunsmith with Kaeris isn't an optimal strategy, you're wrong. It's really not even a debate, you're just wrong... You might decide that another model works better for a scheme or strat that you drew, but a Gunsmith is 100% synergy with a Kaeris crew. Any sort of denying that, is just wrong.  

In a Kaeris crew, you should have NUMEROUS models that set themselves or opponents on fire. Firestarter, Rail Workers, Union Workers, Eternal Flame, Malifaux Child...etc, should be used in some variation AT SOME POINT in a Kaeris crew. There's absolutely no reason why the Gunsmith shouldn't have things to shoot at, and with 3 f***ing cards, it's VERY likely that you get a card you need to get one of the better triggers. You're not using your Gunsmith properly if you're targeting the armored guy 4 turns in a row in hopes of ONLY one type of card. The defensive trigger Smoldering Heart, is just an added bonus to any Kaeris crew, to help potentially save AP.

It's far more dmg output than a December Acolyte IMO, and it's more survivable with Hard to Kill and being able to use that ranged attack in melee. I've always viewed Acolytes as defensive crowd control models, while I view Gunsmiths as offensive dmg output models. When you have ++ on every shot you take, it's very hard to miss your shots, and at the very least you're forcing your opponent to cheat to avoid it. Not to mention, you're cycling cards, in a list that normally doesn't do that. 

In all of the examples above, it seems you guys are inappropriately using them. Some of you are bringing a Gunsmith when they have absolutely no use at all. Why would a Gunsmith be anything more than "ok" in an Ironsides crew? A crew that brings absolutely zero flame things, unless you're wasting AP and Soulstones on something that doesnt synergize with the rest of the crew. I might as well bring Steam Arachnids with Markus with that kind of strategy. LOL

Edited by Spike0738
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Never said I always have the Ram to give a Gunsmith fast, but it normally occurs a couple of times a game between random flips and the start of turn card draws.

I do, however, always have the spare AP to set them on fire. Setting my crew alight is the whole reason I take the Malifaux Child. For one of his AP, I get 1/2 scheme markers a turn that ignore the interact placement requirement. As for him getting the chance to do two, he gets to flip two cards for the cast with no minimum requirement seen. If I don't have the ram or aim at a non-Gunsmith, I'll relent every time. That's far more reliable than relying on the random flips. 

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 Why would a Gunsmith be anything more than "ok" in an Ironsides crew? A crew that brings absolutely zero flame things, unless you're wasting AP and Soulstones on something that doesnt synergize with the rest of the crew. 

Ironsides with a pair of gunsmiths, firestarter, and message from the union can be effective. There are plenty of ways to set opponents on fire and the option of hand picked men and/or the hard way is pretty solid. 

Gunsmiths are good options and well costed in my opinion. They aren't the best things ever, nor are they worthless. 

 

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 Why would a Gunsmith be anything more than "ok" in an Ironsides crew? A crew that brings absolutely zero flame things, unless you're wasting AP and Soulstones on something that doesnt synergize with the rest of the crew. 

Ironsides with a pair of gunsmiths, firestarter, and message from the union can be effective. There are plenty of ways to set opponents on fire and the option of hand picked men and/or the hard way is pretty solid. 

Gunsmiths are good options and well costed in my opinion. They aren't the best things ever, nor are they worthless. 

 

I stand corrected. I apologize. With that set-up I can see how Gunsmiths would be very effective. 

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. I might as well bring Steam Arachnids with Markus with that kind of strategy. LOL

To be fair, I do this, and am quite happy with them. 

 

A number of people are going to despair at my next comment.

Why are you setting fire to things in a Kaeris list?

I've come up with 5 reasons (2 on own models 2 on enemy models and one on either).

1 To power up for wings of flame. So typically you are trading 1 Ap, to give 1 model flying, and effectively a free interact (I know its a bit more versitile than that)

2 To allow healing with purifiying flamee. Which is typically trading 1 Ap for 1 or 2 points of healing. 

3 To improve Immolate - in effect giving her Focus for that spell. So a 1 ap for 1 Ap trade (obviously if you attack the burning model more than once you get more AP as its a focus every time). 

4 To hurt the enemy model. 

5 To trade for cards using Truth in flames.

 

3 doesn't end the condition, so doing it for 3 will naturally do 4 as well. And if you are doing it for either of these, then you are going to be helping out the Gunsmith. 

As a general rule, the spells which apply burning don't do a huge amount for their cost. Take Flaming halo, if it were damage it would be 2/2/2 spread with a trigger to make it more. Not a good attack, so for a master you really need it to do something more than just using it to hurt a model. Its not to bad a damage spread for malifaux child, and the abiltiy for you to set fire to 2 models for 1 Ap makes it much more efficient if you are doing it for the above options  1, 2, 3 or 5. 

For a gunsmith to be able to make use of its a"The Hard way", you need to be spending your Ap burning the enemy. 

So you need to pick a model that does this. I know its obvious. But The Gunsmith has to rely on other models to set it up. If I'm trying to do 1 or 2 on the above list, then I probably have  a couple of models that can do this, and when they aren't burning my own models, they can burn enemy models to help the gunsmith. 

The enemy normally will get to activate after you set something on fire, so can put it out. A lot of the time that a 1 Ap for 1 Ap trade, which isn't bad, but is up to the opponent. The Burning won't deal its damage until the end of turn, so it is't going to stop an enemy model activating. To much in the crew that dishes out burning, and I don't have the hitting power to be able to remove models. I'm also having outside constraints on my activation order. 

To me its all a bit to much for burning to be the optimal Kaeris approach. And if mass burning isn't your plan then Gunsmiths aren't likely to be above Ok. They can do some pretty good things, but its quite luck based. All those positives to attack flips can help you get the trigger you want, but all to often, you end up having to pick the highest card of the flip, with a trigger that isn't useful. 

I've not played many Kaeris games, I'm certainly no an expert, but I've personally had more success when I've not tried to set most things on fire. 

Your playstyle and meta might be different. 

(And when I used them with Toni, I've had several models that can cause burning, at least 4. Sometimes that included oxfordian mages, which I've not had much success with, so that may well hamper the burning route)

 

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I think that many new models were improved and I find them awesome, when they get flattened, instead, I fail to see the reason. The new Gunsmiths and the new Guild Guards, both their looks moved towards a 'standard', when their original looks couldn't be more different. And the mechanical limbs on desperate merc and union miners, they surely have a reason to have them, but they worked as well without, leaving it be a more unique characteristic on named models. I am more curious than annoyed

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. I might as well bring Steam Arachnids with Markus with that kind of strategy. LOL

To be fair, I do this, and am quite happy with them. 

 

A number of people are going to despair at my next comment.

Why are you setting fire to things in a Kaeris list?

I've come up with 5 reasons (2 on own models 2 on enemy models and one on either).

1 To power up for wings of flame. So typically you are trading 1 Ap, to give 1 model flying, and effectively a free interact (I know its a bit more versitile than that)

2 To allow healing with purifiying flamee. Which is typically trading 1 Ap for 1 or 2 points of healing. 

3 To improve Immolate - in effect giving her Focus for that spell. So a 1 ap for 1 Ap trade (obviously if you attack the burning model more than once you get more AP as its a focus every time). 

4 To hurt the enemy model. 

5 To trade for cards using Truth in flames.

 

3 doesn't end the condition, so doing it for 3 will naturally do 4 as well. And if you are doing it for either of these, then you are going to be helping out the Gunsmith. 

As a general rule, the spells which apply burning don't do a huge amount for their cost. Take Flaming halo, if it were damage it would be 2/2/2 spread with a trigger to make it more. Not a good attack, so for a master you really need it to do something more than just using it to hurt a model. Its not to bad a damage spread for malifaux child, and the abiltiy for you to set fire to 2 models for 1 Ap makes it much more efficient if you are doing it for the above options  1, 2, 3 or 5. 

For a gunsmith to be able to make use of its a"The Hard way", you need to be spending your Ap burning the enemy. 

So you need to pick a model that does this. I know its obvious. But The Gunsmith has to rely on other models to set it up. If I'm trying to do 1 or 2 on the above list, then I probably have  a couple of models that can do this, and when they aren't burning my own models, they can burn enemy models to help the gunsmith. 

The enemy normally will get to activate after you set something on fire, so can put it out. A lot of the time that a 1 Ap for 1 Ap trade, which isn't bad, but is up to the opponent. The Burning won't deal its damage until the end of turn, so it is't going to stop an enemy model activating. To much in the crew that dishes out burning, and I don't have the hitting power to be able to remove models. I'm also having outside constraints on my activation order. 

To me its all a bit to much for burning to be the optimal Kaeris approach. And if mass burning isn't your plan then Gunsmiths aren't likely to be above Ok. They can do some pretty good things, but its quite luck based. All those positives to attack flips can help you get the trigger you want, but all to often, you end up having to pick the highest card of the flip, with a trigger that isn't useful. 

I've not played many Kaeris games, I'm certainly no an expert, but I've personally had more success when I've not tried to set most things on fire. 

Your playstyle and meta might be different. 

(And when I used them with Toni, I've had several models that can cause burning, at least 4. Sometimes that included oxfordian mages, which I've not had much success with, so that may well hamper the burning route)

 

I think your problem is the mis-understanding of how Kaeris works... Burning is the #1 thing a Kaeris crew needs to do. With Burning Halo, you're giving a model Burning 2 right off the bat, with the potential to trigger more and get more burning (burning 3 or 4 is very possible). This works exceptionally well with the Rail Golem. Mix in a shot from the Gunsmith and you could take most models off the board in a turn, if you focus it. Don't forget about Flare (zero action Burning 1)

The Firestarter, Malifaux Child and such can set things on fire, so she doesn't have to burning halo things, and can dish out more dmg. If you only have to use immolate, you keep the burning on the model and you dish out lots of dmg with a + to attk/dmg against burning models. Not to mention, if a bunch of models are burning, you fly in the middle of them and hit accellerant to dish out AOE 2dmg and potentially forcing an opponent to take Paralyzed or lose the model. 


Low on cards? Set some of your own models of fire, and then use Truth in Flame to get some cards back... Burning doesn't just disappear. Most models can't just lose conditions. So after the 2dmg, or the 2/3/5 dmg, you're looking at points of burning dmg too. 

Edited by Spike0738
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If you think a Gunsmith with Kaeris isn't an optimal strategy, you're wrong. It's really not even a debate, you're just wrong... You might decide that another model works better for a scheme or strat that you drew, but a Gunsmith is 100% synergy with a Kaeris crew. Any sort of denying that, is just wrong.  

I'm curious, who do you hope to convince by repeating the same old tired points and only adding, to paraphrase, "Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, wrong, wrong!"? Arrogance doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

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If you think a Gunsmith with Kaeris isn't an optimal strategy, you're wrong. It's really not even a debate, you're just wrong... You might decide that another model works better for a scheme or strat that you drew, but a Gunsmith is 100% synergy with a Kaeris crew. Any sort of denying that, is just wrong.  

I'm curious, who do you hope to convince by repeating the same old tired points and only adding, to paraphrase, "Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, wrong, wrong!"? Arrogance doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

yeah i wouldn't say you were wrong as it's all dependant on playstyle.

I do see some things get called out as not so great on here where i disagree. I think playstyle matters a lot. Also environment makes a difference are we always tournament focussed? If not, is not being an A* rated model that much of an issue?

 

My local opponents dislike playing vs my rail golem and gunsmiths just as much as against langston and acolytes which are the internets choice!

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To add something constructive. :P

Mei Feng is pretty good at handing out burning with Vapormancy. Sure it's :melee, but so can Smiths be, Mei Feng also does hit and run very well if you want to keep them at range. Her totem has some burning interactions as well.

Arcane Effigy can make any Master hand out burning.

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