Baby Factory Ftw

[Nagi21]

So hi all.  This isn't going to be some biased, raging, XXX is imbalanced (though it is heavily thought at this moment) post.  This is simply to ask if anyone has any decent counters for M2E Kirai on a per faction basis.  For you see it was many dual moons ago that I had the utmost pleasure... in fighting said crew, and being thoroughly trounced when a Gaki, Onryo, and Seishin hit the table in turn 1, followed by an Ikiyro, Seishin, and another Gaki turn 2 (note that at this point everything I'd been trying to kill has been healing up).

Anyway, after the game we started thinking about how to stop Kirai from basically getting two crews worth of models by turn 2, and for the life of us we couldn't figure out a damn thing short of take a REALLY killy crew, go for a turn 1 all-in bomb, and pray for luck.  It just seems really good that her summon is a one action that has a really nice cast, a fairly low TN for some decent models, the ability to summon summoning tools for a 0 action on top of the ones her other model gets (forget the name), the ability to burn those to gain a +2 to Ca, and the ability to put out literally 3 new models a turn reliably for at LEAST two turns, if she has anything more than a max 6 hand.  I mean even Nicodem and McMourning have to take an extra step that limits the amount of non-pleb models they can put out in a single turn.

Anyway, this isn't a discussing balance post it's a question: How do you guys deal with Kirai?  Shy of a Vik bomb into whirlwind prayers or another summon spam crew, we seem at a bit of a loss.

[valhallan42nd]

You attack their hand. It's the way to go after all summoners. Summoners are no good without SS or a good hand. Greed and Pride from the Seven might be good merc hires. Ikiryo... Well, bait her out with attacks and/or draw targets out of Malevolence range. You can also use models to block the aura as well.

[Nagi21]

You attack their hand. It's the way to go after all summoners. Summoners are no good without SS or a good hand. Greed and Pride from the Seven might be good merc hires. Ikiryo... Well, bait her out with attacks and/or draw targets out of Malevolence range. You can also use models to block the aura as well.

That's the point though.  We were going through options for each faction, and while some have options... of varying usefulness, others have very little card control like that.  Makes it really difficult for a fixed faction tournament per se.

[Adran]

There are quite a few different ways of Playing kirai, so what works for one person won't work for another. 

Over 2 turns she seems to have summoned 13 ss worth of models. That wouldn't scare me 

Personally I find her one of the hardest masters to face, but she is vulnerable. Her resource is her own crew, as her summoning will not increase the total number of wounds on her side of the board (unless you kill off a model when you do it). Mass damage will hurt her. But she has som protection against that if she is played well. I've found multiple attack  attacks are her weakness. Viks (whirlwind), Mei feng (seismic claws trigger), or even misaki using thunder can really ruin her crew. 

She is also quite card intensive. Yes she can summon pretty well with a fuill hand, but then she probably doesn't have high cards to cheat with. 

 

Target priority matters. Kill the healing, don't get Ikyru summoned on you unless you don't mind it. Use Focus on your ranged models since they only will get 1 shot anyway

[Nagi21]

There are quite a few different ways of Playing kirai, so what works for one person won't work for another. 

Over 2 turns she seems to have summoned 13 ss worth of models. That wouldn't scare me 

Personally I find her one of the hardest masters to face, but she is vulnerable. Her resource is her own crew, as her summoning will not increase the total number of wounds on her side of the board (unless you kill off a model when you do it). Mass damage will hurt her. But she has som protection against that if she is played well. I've found multiple attack  attacks are her weakness. Viks (whirlwind), Mei feng (seismic claws trigger), or even misaki using thunder can really ruin her crew. 

She is also quite card intensive. Yes she can summon pretty well with a fuill hand, but then she probably doesn't have high cards to cheat with. 

 

Target priority matters. Kill the healing, don't get Ikyru summoned on you unless you don't mind it. Use Focus on your ranged models since they only will get 1 shot anyway

If she only summoned 13ss of models in 2 turns I think you're opponent might've been playing... off.  What happened yesterday was Datsue Ba summons a Seishin first activation, then kirai goes, 0 actions for another seishin, flips a crow for an onryo, cheats a 13 crow for a hanged, then burns a stone for a crow and cheats in a Shikomi.  Proceeds to start healing up things.  Turn 2 I'm still busy with a dead rider and the Shikomi (which is surprisingly resilient), and she summons another seishin with Datsue Ba, then Kirai does the same thing, burning another 2 (of six mind you) stones and two more decent cards to bring another Shikomi, Gaki, and Onryo.  This is turn 2... it didn't stop. 

My math may be off but that I believe is 35-ish points of summoned models in 2 turns.  Unless I'm killing off 2 or 3 models a turn its literally only getting worse from there and impossible to get anywhere on the board.

[valhallan42nd]

Also, Ikiryo can only come in off Undead or Living models, Gaki, Onryo, Night Terrors, etc... a lot of spirits are not Undead  and don't trigger Iky. Target them freely.

[Nagi21]

Gaki and Onryo don't terrify me in small numbers... Shikomi and Hanged do.

[valhallan42nd]

Gaki and Onryo don't terrify me in small numbers... Shikomi and Hanged do.

Shikome and Hanged come in around 4 wounds. Black Blood is your friend here. Most Kirai crews will tend to operate in a ball. Hanged are hard to target, but it's not hard to target a Terror Tot in the midst of the other crew with Tuco or Angel Eyes and have the Terror Tot pulse black blood over everyone.  Just a thought.

[Nagi21]

Gaki and Onryo don't terrify me in small numbers... Shikomi and Hanged do.

Shikome and Hanged come in around 4 wounds. Black Blood is your friend here. Most Kirai crews will tend to operate in a ball. Hanged are hard to target, but it's not hard to target a Terror Tot in the midst of the other crew with Tuco or Angel Eyes and have the Terror Tot pulse black blood over everyone.  Just a thought.

A tot would die before killing anything off.  It'd be better to simply shoot the targets.  Also unless this happens quickly those are going to heal right back up.

[Adran]

So hi all.  This isn't going to be some biased, raging, XXX is imbalanced (though it is heavily thought at this moment) post.  This is simply to ask if anyone has any decent counters for M2E Kirai on a per faction basis.  For you see it was many dual moons ago that I had the utmost pleasure... in fighting said crew, and being thoroughly trounced when a Gaki, Onryo, and Seishin hit the table in turn 1, followed by an Ikiyro, Seishin, and another Gaki turn 2 (note that at this point everything I'd been trying to kill has been healing up).

 

If she only summoned 13ss of models in 2 turns I think you're opponent might've been playing... off.  What happened yesterday was Datsue Ba summons a Seishin first activation, then kirai goes, 0 actions for another seishin, flips a crow for an onryo, cheats a 13 crow for a hanged, then burns a stone for a crow and cheats in a Shikomi.  Proceeds to start healing up things.  Turn 2 I'm still busy with a dead rider and the Shikomi (which is surprisingly resilient), and she summons another seishin with Datsue Ba, then Kirai does the same thing, burning another 2 (of six mind you) stones and two more decent cards to bring another Shikomi, Gaki, and Onryo.  This is turn 2... it didn't stop. 

My math may be off but that I believe is 35-ish points of summoned models in 2 turns.  Unless I'm killing off 2 or 3 models a turn its literally only getting worse from there and impossible to get anywhere on the board.

I based the numbers on what You said in your first post. 

My experience is she will summon 3 models a turn for the first couple of turns unless she has an appalling hand ( My local Kirai player normally expects to have 10-12 cards pass through his hands per turn as well as gaining ss!)

but what is doing the healing up? And/or what has your opponent killed off when they summoned those 10 wounds of spirits?

 

 

Taelor is actually a pretty good counter to her, and availible to every faction. Welcome to malifaux shuts down so many of her summons.

[valhallan42nd]

That's why it's important to pulse on multiple targets at once. It also avoids the problem of the Hanged's terror. And any AP they spend healing is ap they're not using to kill you or win the game. Black blood shenanigans also stops iky summons, as it's not an attack action that causes damage.

[Rob Lo]

You attack their hand. It's the way to go after all summoners. Summoners are no good without SS or a good hand. Greed and Pride from the Seven might be good merc hires. Ikiryo... Well, bait her out with attacks and/or draw targets out of Malevolence range. You can also use models to block the aura as well.

That's the point though.  We were going through options for each faction, and while some have options... of varying usefulness, others have very little card control like that.  Makes it really difficult for a fixed faction tournament per se.

Going for whatever options you have to force a discard is one option, but valhallan is also referring to just plain old attacking Kirai. All those attacks you're throwing at the newly summoned stuff, just throw it at Kirai. Make them choose between having the cards to summon and keeping her alive. Even if she uses her tricks and her wounds don't drop nearly as much as you'd want, or as much as other models would, if it causes her to spend that card on defense, that's one less guy in your face later in the game. It's pretty much the same for all the summoners. Yes, Kirai has Ikiryo as a response, but if you plan out those attacks and where they're coming from, you make your opponent have to make even more (hopefully bad) choices about sending Ikiryo into a less advantageous position, or suck up some damage initially to get her out in a better place later.

[Nagi21]

 

And/or what has your opponent killed off when they summoned those 10 wounds of spirits?

 

Seishin

[Bengt]

 

And/or what has your opponent killed off when they summoned those 10 wounds of spirits?

 

Seishin

But you wrote that they summoned 4 Seishin and 6 proper models...

[Nagi21]

Turn one they summoned two Seishin that turned into 3 models.  Turn two was the same thing.

[Bengt]

Turn one they summoned two Seishin that turned into 3 models.  Turn two was the same thing.

What I mean is that the wounds for those two extra summons have to come of existing models. Also when using Seishin to summon you give up some other very nice (0) on Kirai and Datsue Ba, it also requires 6 and 8.

So on the first turn they used 6, 8, 9, 12, 13 to summon, 6, 8, 8, 9, 12 on the second. Also a 7 for each heal the Lost Love does, any crow for each heal from a Nurse, Kirai and Seishin didn't heal anything by the description. Some of those cards may have been top decked, but it's still pretty nice hands and using all of them for summons leaves nothing to cheat during combat.

[valhallan42nd]

Turn one they summoned two Seishin that turned into 3 models.  Turn two was the same thing.

What I mean is that the wounds for those two extra summons have to come of existing models. Also when using Seishin to summon you give up some other very nice (0) on Kirai and Datsue Ba, it also requires 6 and 8.

So on the first turn they used 6, 8, 9, 12, 13 to summon, 6, 8, 8, 9, 12 on the second. Also a 7 for each heal the Lost Love does, any crow for each heal from a Nurse, Kirai and Seishin didn't heal anything by the description. Some of those cards may have been top decked, but it's still pretty nice hands and using all of them for summons leaves nothing to cheat during combat.

People seem to think summoners just pluck models from the ether; no, we spend master AP, stones, and cards to make this all work, and we have to get the spend the resource to make it work. When you're on the receiving end, it can seem overwhelming, but let me assure you, when a summoner starts with a crap hand in turns 1-2, it can be "that's the game, thank you for playing."

[Nagi21]

Turn one they summoned two Seishin that turned into 3 models.  Turn two was the same thing.

What I mean is that the wounds for those two extra summons have to come of existing models. Also when using Seishin to summon you give up some other very nice (0) on Kirai and Datsue Ba, it also requires 6 and 8.

So on the first turn they used 6, 8, 9, 12, 13 to summon, 6, 8, 8, 9, 12 on the second. Also a 7 for each heal the Lost Love does, any crow for each heal from a Nurse, Kirai and Seishin didn't heal anything by the description. Some of those cards may have been top decked, but it's still pretty nice hands and using all of them for summons leaves nothing to cheat during combat.

People seem to think summoners just pluck models from the ether; no, we spend master AP, stones, and cards to make this all work, and we have to get the spend the resource to make it work. When you're on the receiving end, it can seem overwhelming, but let me assure you, when a summoner starts with a crap hand in turns 1-2, it can be "that's the game, thank you for playing."

Yes but on the receiving end when they get a remotely workable hand it can easily be "that's the game, thank you for playing."

[wizuriel]

We really need to start getting more anti summon models in this game. Yeah a summoner might have a bad hand and only end up summoning an extra 10SS worth or models in a game, but that still lets them be a lot more flexible than any non summoner and helps out activate your opponent which is huge in this game. 

[Thana.]

I agree with attacking the summoner player's hand. My favorite neverborn anti-summoner tech is slingshotting hungering darkness or (especially) pandora into the middle of the summons. Between fears given form, terrifying and spamming inflict you either burn through their entire hand or knock wounds off their models left and right. 

Two things that I find useful to learn how to overcome difficult matchups are to switch crews with your opponent or to ask your opponent to play a better player and just watch the game and see how they handle it. 

 

[Adran]

People seem to think summoners just pluck models from the ether; no, we spend master AP, stones, and cards to make this all work, and we have to get the spend the resource to make it work. When you're on the receiving end, it can seem overwhelming, but let me assure you, when a summoner starts with a crap hand in turns 1-2, it can be "that's the game, thank you for playing."

Yes but on the receiving end when they get a remotely workable hand it can easily be "that's the game, thank you for playing."

That sentence can be applied just as easily to the Vik whirlwind bomb, or Rasputina with overpower, or any number of other combinations. 

Summoning looks easy from the other side of the table, because you don't see most of their struggles. Try playing them a few times and you will realised soem of the issues. I've had games where Summon hasn't got a card in hand in his 12 cards looked atfor do it like this, 2 turns running, pot games where the dreamer hasn't drawn above a 10 for 2 turns, and they fall apart. 

Now those are unlikely occurances. But if you have hand parity with your opponent, just think what you can do with that card, that they have spent to summon. Most masters will be able to do more damage with that attack than kirai has gained in wounds on the table with the card and AP expenditure being equal. 

 

Summoning is a powerful ability, but it is one that comes with hidden costs that until you tray and paly it yourself, its hard to understand. 

Kirai is one of the best summoners, but even her getting an ideal hand for a couple of games is not game over. 

[gonzo917]

Played my first game against Kirai with Von Schnill, Hannah, 2 Friekorps Librarians, Trapper and 2 Friekorps recently. The Netherflux Aura just shut down her summoning for the most part it seemed.