I need help with two questions

[NswfG]

Hi,

i have tow questions and i hope someone can help me.

1. on page 44 (big book):Models my not charge while engaged.

Now in oure group there are a discussion...

a ) The one means that the Model who is engaged may not declare a attack action... 

b ) The others means nobody may declare a attack action against a model who is engaged...

whitch ist correct? 

2. Question is from the Shifting Loyalties
When have i to "finished off" the Desolation Engine? After he Dies or after the first of the two Abominations dies or have both to die?

[Dirial]

ad 1. Engaged models cannot declare charges... but models can charge engaged models.

ad 2. Don't have the book, but I think summoned models don't count, so I think after the Deso is killed.

[hoodedrider]

Summoned models don't carry over between games, so you don't flip for Finished Off/Injuries

[Clockwork Top Hat]

Then you have finished off the desolation engine when you destroy it not the abominations

[santaclaws01]

Just to clarify, when you say attack actions you mean charge right? Because otherwise I have no idea what those 2 view points have to do with the first question. 

 

As for your second question, you flip for finished off as you normally would, unless the Desolation Engine was summoned, in which case you don't flip because summoned models don't carry over.

[NswfG]

Sorry yes i meant charge...

i think the example isn´t correct because the Desolation Engine must be killed to summon the two minions not secrifice... I had meant like the example on page 31 (myranda). But i think there is no Model how can secrifice himself to summon two or more other Models...

Thanks

Edited September 5, 2015 by NswfG

[solkan]

The Summoned Models rules on page 31 of Shifting Loyalties make the exception for Tactical Actions and Abilities which sacrifice the model to summon other models.

Lost Focus: When this model is killed, summon two Abominations into base contact with it before it is removed. This model does not drop Corpse or Scrap Markers when it is killed.

The Desolation Engine's ability Lost Focus doesn't sacrifice the Desolation Engine, so that doesn't qualify for the exception.

As a result, when you kill the Desolation Engine, it's Finished Off and you flip for it right then and those two summoned Abomination models don't change that.

 

[santaclaws01]

Short answer:

Engaged models can attack each other as long as their target in is Ml range.

 

Long answer:

A Charge is a (2) Tactical Action that causes 2 (1) Ml Attack Actions. In order to charge you:

1) must not be engaged with any models (you cannot be engaged with friendly models so this implicitly means enemy models.)

2) must have an Ml attack action.

3) must end the move within Ml range of the target.

4) must target the same enemy with each attack.

Pg 44 states how engagement effects models.

A model can only use Ml actions while it is engaged. So any models that are engaged can attack each other with Ml actions.

A model that is not engaged can make a charge action. A model that is engaged can not make a charge action unless it has an ability that let's it charge while engaged.

You're wrong on a few things.

First: You need to have an Attack Action with a range  to be able to charge. It doesn't have to be a Ml attack. The Hungering Darkness for example has a Ca Attack Action with a range of  3". It can charge.

Second: A model can use any action while engaged aside from Charge, actions with only a range of  (Perdita has an Sh attack action that has both a  range and a  range, so she may use the action while engaged and also charge with it), or actions that specifically state it may not be used while engaged

Third: Models that are engaged may not necessarily be able to attack each other with Ml or range  Attack Actions. If a model , Model A, with range  3" is 2" away from a model, Model B, with range  1", the two models are considered to be engaged with each other, but Model B can't attack Model A unless it first moves into range.

[Viagrus]

Short answer:

Engaged models can attack each other as long as their target in is Ml range.

 

Long answer:

A Charge is a (2) Tactical Action that causes 2 (1) Ml Attack Actions. In order to charge you:

1) must not be engaged with any models (you cannot be engaged with friendly models so this implicitly means enemy models.)

2) must have an Ml attack action.

3) must end the move within Ml range of the target.

4) must target the same enemy with each attack.

Pg 44 states how engagement effects models.

A model can only use Ml actions while it is engaged. So any models that are engaged can attack each other with Ml actions.

A model that is not engaged can make a charge action. A model that is engaged can not make a charge action unless it has an ability that let's it charge while engaged.