Neverborn Lucius

[Masquer]

Where did you get the range increase? It's the Issue Command that has range 14 if it's a guardsman and 8 if not. If I recollect correctly. But it really doesn't up the range of objection to 14.

Too true.  Thank you for correcting me.  14" command range is pretty good though.

[zFiend]

Don't worry about it. We all misread and misplay things in this game.

[PeregrineFalcon]

lawyers

Would you like to open your thoughts a bit as to why you think the Lawyers make a good addition to Neverborn Lucius? Since a lot of people don't think much of them Guild side. Do they get better Neverborn side or what's the deal here? 

I find them to be vital to Lucius NB. The +flip to Horror duels is key to helping get those Commanding Presence duels off. Also their stat lines are phenomenal and they bring in a great amount of 'Guild' stuff (HtW being passed out is nice). Also a Fees + Black Blooded Illuminated is a thing. Requires hiring, Black Blood Shaman, Lawyer, and Illuminated.

Also Lawyers + Performers (A sip of wine trigger). There is a lot that Lawyers bring, I always want to take 2 with NB Lucius but generally only fit in 1. They do a lot for their cost and are resilient little scheme runners that buff the rest of the crew.

[Insidiously Mad]

So do you ascribe to the idea that you can black blood pustule models that you put black blood on. Cause RAW you can't. And Thus noone really uses that combo over here (UK). Justin has also made in (unofficially) clear that that was an intentional move on his part (although it does make it a weird model to ever use in non nephilim crews). That being said the fees+black blood combo is still awesome on models that come with it. 

A bit off topic, but I loved that combo idea until I looked into it further. And was curious how you guys are ruling it on other side of the pond. Hopefully one day we get an official FAQ

[PeregrineFalcon]

So do you ascribe to the idea that you can black blood pustule models that you put black blood on. Cause RAW you can't. And Thus noone really uses that combo over here (UK). Justin has also made in (unofficially) clear that that was an intentional move on his part (although it does make it a weird model to ever use in non nephilim crews). That being said the fees+black blood combo is still awesome on models that come with it. 

A bit off topic, but I loved that combo idea until I looked into it further. And was curious how you guys are ruling it on other side of the pond. Hopefully one day we get an official FAQ

In my interaction with Justin about a year ago he unofficially said the opposite so who knows. Unless he changed his stance, again unofficial. I WOULD LOVE AN OFFICIAL RULING.

So I guess for now, disregard the Illuminated (fees+BB) bit until we get an official ruling. Regardless focus on BB Postulate on other NB Black Blood models that you've fee-ed up. For example I have got AMAZING plays out of the Young Nephilim in Lucius crews. My strongest Lucius crews have had as a baseline, Candy, 1-2 Young Nephs, 1-2 Walds, 1 Lawyer, Primordial, BBS. Can swap out Candy for Doppleganger based on purpose/need.

I tried using Lucius as NB master pulling in more Guild and just found it to be lackluster.

P.S. Collodi is better

[Insidiously Mad]

I've finally expanded out from only playing Dreamer in the past 6 months and am currently trying to get the 5 neverborn masters I've painted under control before I move on to the final two (Collodi and Lucius). So it's all theoryfaux, but you have a very different style of list with Luxius than me. In a few months hopefully I will have a better idea of how he works. But ya, it's tough to beat Collodi as a control master. Think bringing in Guild is key to making him worth it over Collodi. Also think Collodi is better at more killy stuff and Lucius at scheme marker stuff. But making Lucius work is one of my main goals for late 2015/early 2016

[PeregrineFalcon]

I've finally expanded out from only playing Dreamer in the past 6 months and am currently trying to get the 5 neverborn masters I've painted under control before I move on to the final two (Collodi and Lucius). So it's all theoryfaux, but you have a very different style of list with Luxius than me. In a few months hopefully I will have a better idea of how he works. But ya, it's tough to beat Collodi as a control master. Think bringing in Guild is key to making him worth it over Collodi. Also think Collodi is better at more killy stuff and Lucius at scheme marker stuff. But making Lucius work is one of my main goals for late 2015/early 2016

Yeah I think Lucius is awesome with scheme denial and scheme placement stuff (but again Collodi can get a lot out of Mannequins + Performers + Dopplegangers throwing scheme markers 6"). Now with that said I do agree that Lucius does have a lot of great denial.

With regards to the concept that he does better when bringing in Guild stuff, ya know I thought the same thing. And I tested it out for a long while. There are some key models he can bring in (Austrginers even though not as much benefit, Warden is awesome with him, the aforementioned Lawyers). But beyond that I think you can get more efficiency out of Collodi. I love Lucius as a master, and theme wise he is one of my favorite. It's just too bad that most of his cool stuff requires a lot of resources to have happen, where as Collodi just has them happen with little to no TN, suits, etc.

I did a synopsis in another thread that basically summarized Lucius as having higher dmg potential with say Guild Rifleman and Trappers, but less chance of hitting. Where as Collodi is more of a master that can enable a lot of successful hits just a little lower dmg spread.

I will say, Lucius does have a FANTASTIC swapping ability that I think is actually one of his biggest strengths, that I know I'm guilty of not using enough. The list of core models I mention above aren't ones I've used in a long time with him because of my NB Lucius (using Guild models experiment), but they just worked very easily with him and I think are a good place to start for someone playing NB lucius and buying NB models.

[Eclipse]

To be able to use Lucius well you need three things: Range, dancing skills and accumulating gains. What I mean is the following:
- For range, bring ranged models that you can safely order from a distance. Bringing over Riflemen and Pathfinders is a great boon to Neverborn. It also allows you to order around models without moving much and needing to pass horror duels - although if you want to get funky, you could take him with Widow Weaver and filler minions like The Depleted to draw cards when they fail the duel after engaging the enemy;
- As far as dancing is concerned, the Man himself has got you covered. "What Lackeys are for" is a key Lucius ability, as a clue pointing towards this it was restricted to once per turn. This allows you to re-position your own models while dropping scheme markers. You can for example give orders from behind, when the time is right, pop into their face and keep ordering the shooting line behind to keep firing while you tarpit and possibly Red Tape the enemies nearby. Then swap out with a buddy. Have you frustrated the opponent from being unable to hurt and then delivered a hungry Nekima or Teddy in the enemy masters face? Have you left a scheme marker for a Performer to continue the dancing lessons in Lucius' stead, then ordered her to blow it up and then Paralyze something important with Siren's Call, all the while being Manipulative about it? Have you teleported on a cliff where a Pathfinder previously stood, throwing him down there, ready to pump out a trap in the middle of the enemies and blasting their faces almost point blank? I haven't done the second one only because I don't have the Performers yet;
- Accumulating gains means having a growing list. Instead of worrying whether your smexy master will become useless when his minions die, get more minions in-game! Nekima with Grow and The True Mother, Spawnmother by herself, Widow Weaver with her Handbag can keep a steady flow of minions going. And while most of those might not be particularly strong, they have numbers, waste AP and focus, and in the end can run schemes and tie up enemy models. Enough for you to win the game in a number of ways!
Lucius is amazing in Neverborn. I can't wait until I get to play him with Master Queeg (more traps or focus for (0) for my Pathfinders? Yummy!), Mounted Guards (bringing The Illuminated or late game Hooded Rider with them), Mysterious Emissary summoning the one model he lacked - cheap mimic models  . Make them squirm as you dance around the battlefield, watching your golden Cartier watch for the hour of their inevitable doom.
 

[admiralvorkraft]

Mysterious emissary, black blood shaman, illuminated, young, depleted...

I wish I played Neverborn Lucius. I will agree that summoning is key with him. Lucius treats his crew as a disposable resource.

Also, long-term planning is critical. From deployment you have to know which models need to be where and in what condition on turn five to score your points.

[Mxbedlam]

So how come no one has addressed the Shifting Loyalties models that make Lucius really shine? Mounted Guards and Corrupted Hounds. The first can deliver some of the Neverborn's biggest threats deep into the opponent's side of the board with positive flips on Def. The second are super cheap charging monsters who love to be used outside of activations and at 3SS you can fit 3-4 of them very easily.

[Masquer]

So how come no one has addressed the Shifting Loyalties models that make Lucius really shine? Mounted Guards and Corrupted Hounds. The first can deliver some of the Neverborn's biggest threats deep into the opponent's side of the board with positive flips on Def. The second are super cheap charging monsters who love to be used outside of activations and at 3SS you can fit 3-4 of them very easily.

In my case, I'm having a hard time making room for the stuff I want, let alone those models.

[Eclipse]

So how come no one has addressed the Shifting Loyalties models that make Lucius really shine? ...

In my case, I'm having a hard time making room for the stuff I want, let alone those models.

This. Hard to fit the new models when I have so good options already. I', sure though that at some point I will find time to test the Mounted Guards, the Hounds, the Emissary, Master Queeg... Hey, I don't even have a Black Blood Shaman yet, nor have I tested with one. Apart from those that could playtest during the beta or are willing to proxy, noone has played with the new models I reckon

[Mxbedlam]

Imo these models supplant the old ones and/or add new dimensions to Lucius play style. Nearly everyone expects ranged from him, suddenly a Teddy comes 17" up the board and eats everybody's faces off.

[Masquer]

Working within the Mimic sub-type, I've put together this control list:

Lucius 

- Wings of Darkness (1)

- Surprisingly Loyal (1)

The Scribe (2)

Guild Lawyer (6)

Guild Lawyer (6)

Candy (9)

-Depression (1)

Doppleganger (7)

- Mimic's Blessing (1)

Mr. Graves (8)

Mr. Tannen (6)

 

That leaves me 2 SS for additional upgrades, which I am still undecided on. Yes, I know this list is short on minions, so that all of Lucius' minion buff only have the Lawyers to focus on, that's the idea. Perhaps Secret Objectives would be worthwhile?

[Eclipse]

Working within the Mimic sub-type, I've put together this control list:

...

Having tried this (minus Candy, who I don't really like, as flavor and as a model): Drop the Lawyers, or at least only take one. Go with either Graves + Tannen or Candy + Changeling (proxy/conversion). Get rid of Mimic's Blessing on Doppelganger as she lives on Manipulative anyway and both Man. and MB work before activation. Useless Duplications is golden in a mimic list, and Doppelganger loves it especially. Also, you need to outactivate at least two of the more important models to make good use out of Manipulative (or activate Tannen first, then have Graves turn it back on afterwards). Take a Beckoner and the Mysterious Emissary (it can summon Changelings, finally the cheap Mimic minions!). This gives you more speed and more options. Basically:

Lucius 

- Wings of Darkness (1)

- Surprisingly Loyal (1)

The Scribe (2)

Beckoner (7)

Candy (9) +Fears Given Form (1), Changeling (4) OR Mr. Graves (8), Mr. Tannen (6)

Doppleganger (7)

-Useless Duplications (1)
Guild Lawyer (6)

Mysterious Emissary (10) + Conflux of Tyranny (0)

That leaves me 2 SS for additional upgrades, which I am still undecided on. Yes, I know this list is short on minions, so that all of Lucius' minion buff only have the Lawyers to focus on, that's the idea. Perhaps Secret Objectives would be worthwhile?

For the final SS, I usually take Legalese on Lucius, be it for the auras effect, or for VP if I think I can outmanuever the opposition. You will have trouble with so few minions though, better sift through them cards to summon more Changelings. 
Lucuis +Legalese (1)
Also, make sure this is NOT a killy game, or at least take Retribution's Eye if it is. Do keep in mind that although the Mimic list is fluffy, it is not very practical as it lacks enough minions with presence of their own. Taking more named models however means that you have very, very few models to command with Lucius (this is why you need more control and troop bolstering with Emissary, I mean come on, it is basically the Mimic Momma, with it spewing out baby Changelings and what-not).

Edited October 15, 2015 by Eclipse

[Pavcio]

For me after wave 3 Lucius can only hire 3 additional guardsman because MASTER QUEEG is super OP. 7 SS Model which moves in same turn for 8" (3 from push 5 from walk) and gives 6" 0 (1) interact action aura for every friendly MODEL ( hell yeah everyone who dont have them like hounds)and works with lawyer mechanic- after he walks for horror duel, free 0 action on minion- Is like must have. 

Ps. 3 words to Master Qeeg: " Fears given form"

[Ludvig]

For me after wave 3 Lucius can only hire 3 additional guardsman because MASTER QUEEG is super OP. 7 SS Model which moves in same turn for 8" (3 from push 5 from walk) and gives 6" 0 (1) interact action aura for every friendly MODEL ( hell yeah everyone who dont have them like hounds)and works with lawyer mechanic- after he walks for horror duel, free 0 action on minion- Is like must have. 

Ps. 3 words to Master Qeeg: " Fears given form"

He can be very useful but I would say he is a fair bit away from OP. Also note that almost all of his abilities cost cards/wounds and you are always starved for cards when playing Lucius.

Fears given form would be nice in some instances, you just need to be careful later in the game if you get stuck in close to your own models. I very often use him as a counter charger to free models up and that gets dangerous with Fears since he is then standing around your own models who are getting ready to activate.

[Pavcio]

For me after wave 3 Lucius can only hire 3 additional guardsman because MASTER QUEEG is super OP. 7 SS Model which moves in same turn for 8" (3 from push 5 from walk) and gives 6" 0 (1) interact action aura for every friendly MODEL ( hell yeah everyone who dont have them like hounds)and works with lawyer mechanic- after he walks for horror duel, free 0 action on minion- Is like must have. 

Ps. 3 words to Master Qeeg: " Fears given form"

He can be very useful but I would say he is a fair bit away from OP. Also note that almost all of his abilities cost cards/wounds and you are always starved for cards when playing Lucius.

Fears given form would be nice in some instances, you just need to be careful later in the game if you get stuck in close to your own models. I very often use him as a counter charger to free models up and that gets dangerous with Fears since he is then standing around your own models who are getting ready to activate.

sorry, but I dont see an problem with cards in Lucius, especially if you take lawyer with you same with wounds since illuminated or depted are in your reach. But maybe we are playing diffrent setups. This is what i like in this game, that it gives many possibilities of setups for your crews which one suit for diffrent playstyles. Cheers!

[Eclipse]

Ps. 3 words to Master Qeeg: " Fears given form"

He can be very useful but I would say he is a fair bit away from OP. Also note that almost all of his abilities cost cards/wounds and you are always starved for cards when playing Lucius.

Fears given form would be nice in some instances, you just need to be careful later in the game if you get stuck in close to your own models. I very often use him as a counter charger to free models up and that gets dangerous with Fears since he is then standing around your own models who are getting ready to activate.

sorry, but I dont see an problem with cards in Lucius, especially if you take lawyer with you same with wounds since illuminated or depted are in your reach. But maybe we are playing diffrent setups. This is what i like in this game, that it gives many possibilities of setups for your crews which one suit for diffrent playstyles. Cheers!

 As always with Fears Given Form, be careful with your unit placement as Queeg rather likes being near other friendly models - don't turn the hand drain effect against yourself as well The upgrade is certainly fluffy on Queeg, as well as other 'scary characters' with big engagement range - Hungering Darkness, Nekima, Pandora and Lilith... I don't think he is OP either, but he seems quite useful nonetheless - all the (0) actions and pushes. I'd love to get the model when it's out, but before that: To finally make this Bad Juju/Mysterious Emissary conversion I have in mind...
 I find myself using most of my SS to draw cards with On Wings of Darkness when playing Lucius. They can guarantee the triggers I need for my orders -and- the cards to make any attacks count, the 'What Lackeys Are For' for the turn... I don't really like having a hand full of cards lower then 6 (unless it is of Tomes for a Clockwork Trap ) with our Two-Faced Secretary here; if I need to, say, discard (low) cards for - flips, it will usually be part of my plan. Anyway, I am so glad there are different people and playstyles in this game, it really allows you to express yourself in different ways Cheers!

[Masquer]

Working within the Mimic sub-type, I've put together this control list:

...

Having tried this (minus Candy...)..

 

Then you actually haven't tried it. Candy is the prime mover, controlling the activation of the opponent's models and opening up avenues for the crew to do it's job. It's an ensemble cast, each has a specific part to play. I am going to rethink Mimic's Blessing on the doppleganger, but if Useless Duplications goes anywhere, it will be on a model in the thick of the Mimic buffing zone, like Lucius. Fears Given Form on Candy might be worth it too. I'll go in detail on the tactics I have in mind later this evening. 

 

I tried the Changelings and Mysterious Emissary, it was underwhelming. 

Edited October 16, 2015 by Masquer
The...the...the...

[Eclipse]

Working within the Mimic sub-type, I've put together this control list:

...

Having tried this (minus Candy...)..

Then you actually haven't tried it. Candy is the prime mover, controlling the activation of the opponent's models and opening up avenues for the crew to do it's job. 

 Probably an omission on my part. Still, I do not like Candy, she is not for me - though I have seen her used very well. Maybe it's a difference in playstyles, but this is what I love about this game, sometimes you are free to tailor (not Taelor, 'cmon!) to suit your needs and style.

I tried the Changelings and Mysterious Emissary, it was underwhelming. 

I'm sorry to hear this. Really looking to hear more feedback on them, if you are willing to share  

Edit: Next month I'm going forward with my Zoraida and Bad Juju/Mysterious Emissary conversions. Been wondering how the whole Swampfiend theme would mix with Lucius for a long time now....

Edited October 16, 2015 by Eclipse

[Masquer]

Probably an omission on my part. Still, I do not like Candy, she is not for me - though I have seen her used very well. Maybe it's a difference in playstyles, but this is what I love about this game, sometimes you are free to tailor (not Taelor, 'cmon!) to suit your needs and style.

I agree, it's one of the reasons I picked up this game over other tabletop miniatures games I'm familiar with, which is a lot.

 I'm sorry to hear this. Really looking to hear more feedback on them, if you are willing to share  

I like the models theoretically, but in order to run Changelings and Emissary I feel like I have to cater to them, even if you only take the Emissary and plan on summoning the Changelings in.  And that's great, throw your Emissary in with your Guild Riflemen, Terrortots, or whatever minion floats your boat; it's a great support piece for that.  Use the Changelings to murder scheme runners or sap cards out of your opponent's hand with all those attacks the Changelings give you.  The issues I have are: that Changelings are less proficient Dopplegangers, and I'm already running a Doppleganger, so I feel the points could be better utilized somewhere else; the Mysterious Emissary doesn't shine as brightly when their aren't a lot of minions around, though I did find it's "well-rounded" abilities to be less useful than what a specialist might have; and I didn't enjoy the horde tactics or missing with most of my Ml/Sh/Ca 4 Changeling attacks.  In a traditional Lucius list though, they're great choices.

Concerning the Mimic list I posted earlier, here are my thoughts:

The idea came to me when I was considering how I might best utilize Mr. Tannen.  How do I get Mr. Tannen in position and keep him alive?  Once you start messing with a player's ability to run their crew in the normal fashion, the cause of that is generally marked for a quick death.  And you're right, Useless Duplications is dear in that regard, and it should have been in the list in the first place, but there's also Mr. Grave's reactivation of Tannen's Manipulative and Lucius' Red Tape.  So how do we deal with that enemy activation while Mr. Tannen is wide open?  You control the activation process.  This is where Candy lives; she has several options for making sure that the next turn's activations go, more or less, according to your design.  Depression/Alright Already! is a must for this tactic, and pairs exceptionally well with Mr. Tannen and the Doppleganger.  Candy sets the field, Mr. Tannen hobbles your opponent's soulstone use and cheating, then Lucius Lawyers up or starts dishing out Red Tape.  Lawyers and Doppleganer can run schemes or support.  Mr. Graves can murder whomever Mr. Tannen is distracting.  I could put a Beckoner in there, but I don't see it filling the role of anything it could replace.                

Revised Crew:

Lucius

-On Wings of Darkness

-Surprisingly Loyal

-Useless Duplications

The Scribe

Guild Lawyer

Guild Lawyer

Candy

-Depression

-Fears Given Form

Doppleganger

Mr. Graves

-Retribution's Eye

Mr. Tannen 

Edited October 17, 2015 by Masquer
Added Crew List

[Eclipse]

Concerning the Mimic list I posted earlier, here are my thoughts:

The idea came to me when I was considering how I might best utilize Mr. Tannen.  How do I get Mr. Tannen in position and keep him alive?

 ...              

Revised Crew:

I understand what you were aiming to do now; it seems you understand all Mimic models well and are able to get the most out of the ones that fit your playstyle. I have been wondering how to get the most out of Mr. Tannen as well, but never thought of Candy, nor had success with him in Lucius lists... I have found him useful with Lynch in a Sorrows list though, with Depression either on him (when Graves is around) or on Doppelganger.
 I understand better how and why the Emissary and Changelings should be used. I had been thinking in terms of a more traditional Lucius list (where I prefer having models that can change what they are doing), while yours indeed has actors with specific roles in the choreography. Thank you for explaining  Oh, and with just this small change of upgrades the list seems so much better for some reason. Or maybe I love Retribution's Eye and Useless Duplications too much