Seeking advice vs. Guild (LONG)

[OneLittleThunder]

Hi folks! I have a tournament coming up and, while I don't expect to place, I also don't want to bring shame upon my faction. I've got decent plans in mind for almost all the opponents I might face, but there is one particular round/matchup that is kind of stumping me, and I'd like to get some ideas from the brain trust here.

 

Warning: Extensive ramblings ahead! A lot of this is just me getting my thoughts organized, but if you see anything I'm missing or wrong about, please chip in!

 

The setup (and some of you may recognize this scenario):

 

STRATEGY: Headhunter

DEPLOYMENT: Corner

SCHEMES: Line in the Sand, Bodyguard, Distract, Outflank, Plant Evidence

 

LitS seems particularly awful in Corner deployment, and Bodyguard takes too long in a tournament setting, so I'm left with three viable Scheme choices; Outflank is probably the worst of the three in a Strategy that encourages close-up fighting, so I'm probably looking at Distract and Plant Evidence. So it's looking like a very interact-y game, but I need some killing power to actually make the opponent drop heads.

 

The potential matchup that's stumping me is against the Guild. Given the Strategy and Schemes, I expect I'll most likely be facing McMourning, McCabe, Hoffman, or Lucius; of those, I've only ever faced McCabe and Hoffman, and those only once each. So I'm kind of shooting in the dark here.

 

Generally useful models for this setup:

 

CHIAKI: Condition removal, the ability to make an enemy Insignificant, a 6" blast of "get away from me!" and an optional Slow? Sounds like a good fit...

 

KANG: Always great against Constructs, which I expect to see at least some of.

 

LOW RIVER MONKS: Condition removal (especially important if McMourning shows up), plus they're great cheap tarpits.

 

MR. TANNEN: With this many interactions going on, Chatty seems likely to be worth its weight in gold. Plus Cooler is always handy. With Lucius and Hoffman both bringing some interaction trickery to the table, I feel like he may be a must-take...if I can keep him alive.

 

PERFORMER: One feels mandatory, two would not be unreasonable. Lures and interactions while engaged are just too good to pass up here.

 

RONIN: Good for killing Constructs with their ability to ignore Armor and Flurry, and the free 4" push after they damage someone is great for picking up heads. Plus they can kill themselves quickly and productively if they get Distracted at a crucial time. A Performer needs to go in one Mercenary slot, but I may well take a Ronin in the other.

 

SENSEI YU: Free (1) Interactions if he's Focused, easy pushes for his friends, plus optional immunity to Poison seems like a good package. And he ignores Df triggers in melee. Awful expensive, though...and I still don't have a good GG-legal proxy for him (though I could make one if I had to).

 

TORAKAGE: They can run schemes, fight other scheme runners, and break away quickly to try for Outflank in the endgame. 

 

So as a core list, I'm thinking something like:

 

Chiaki w/Pull of the Grave [6+1]

Mr. Tannen [6]

Performer [5+1]

Ronin [6+1]

TOTAL: 26 points

 

That leaves 24 points for scheme runners, beaters, defense, Upgrades, and a little cache. But of course, I need a Master...

 

I feel like Shenlong would do well here, but I'm not going to have a set of GG-legal proxies (or the official models) painted in time for the tournament, so he's out. I also haven't painted (or played) Misaki yet. Everyone else is potentially on the table, though. My Master thoughts are:

 

BREWMASTER: Maybe the best equipped to deal with McMourning, but also the 10T Master I've played the least. I love the idea of bringing both Fingers and Mr. Tannen to completely shut down interactions (Headhunter, Distract, Plant Evidence) in a huge area, but that's a big chunk of my points right there (and two fairly vulnerable characters to try to preserve). A Performer or two (with a pseudo-Expunge along with everything else) seem obvious, but that doesn't leave me with much to actually make the Guildies' heads fall off. Yin is a good fit with Brewie and a great tarpit, but that leaves me with about 10 points for some offensive punch and a way to try to keep everyone else alive...Komainu, maybe?

 

McCABE: A great fit for the strat/scheme pool; in addition to all his usual pushing and reactivating, the ability to hire Austringers will be ideal for this setup, and I expect to see some across the table. I don't have the Hounds to bring along with Luna, which is a shame, but them's the breaks (where are my plastic doggies, Wyrd?). She's still probably worth it for the Companion head-grabbing, though.

 

MEI FENG: Nice mobility, no (0) to compete with On Wings of Wind, lots of pushes, overall a pretty good fit. Willie would be useful for blasts and anti-Armor, and any Foundry folks can all ignore Armor at the cost of a few cards. Emberling is a cheap, Significant totem, and Metal Gamin can help protect some of the key models. Shame they're so slow...

 

LYNCH: Meh. He's a solid master, but I don't think he brings anything special to this set of strats and schemes.

 

YAN LO: Again, I like him, but this doesn't seem like his area of expertise. Lightning Dance and/or Terracotta Curse could come in handy, but I think I can do better elsewhere.

 

So...any thoughts from the more experienced among us? Am I overthinking this? (Almost certainly!)

[BigHammer]

Misaki loves headhunter thanks to her Next Target trigger, which can leave her exactly where she needs to be after killing something to pick up the head marker, and Downburst, which can clear her the space she might need to grab it.

Yan Lo can Lightning Dance an enemy model into your crew, Lightning Dance back, then have them killed with impunity to provide you with head markers without having to give ground.

It's worth bearing in mind, too, that you can pick up head markers dropped by your own models, so if your opponent downs one of your own crew, making sure they're covered to prevent the head being immediately stolen can really help (Ototo and Sidir's Laugh Off abilities stop the enemy moving them away from a marker without an Obey).

As for Guild, Mei Feng is my current favourite master against them. Vent Steam messes up Perdita, Sonnia and any other Sh and Ca (mostly the former) attacks, forcing them to close with you (where 10T excel), and any of their Constructs or armoured models are fodder for foundry models (thanks to Precise, an excellent ability). Her immunity to slow and paralyse are also very useful (looking at you, Hunters). Bringing Katanaka Snipers and/or Thunder Archers with Kang and Mei Feng is slightly unfair against predominantly ranged crews, as a lot of Guild tend to be. A monk of low river fits in well here for condition removal, since Vent Steam counters Chiaki's Ca heal (it's an attack action), but protects the vulnerable monks from ranged attacks in turn.

[Adran]

Firstly, I think you are over thinking it far too much. But still, to give you something more to think about...

 

In head Hunter, Ranged crews are not as strong as they would normally be (due to dropping heads no where near themselves). Because of this you will probably get less use out of vent steam than you would normally expect.

About the only thing I would expect from the Guild player is at least 1 Austringer as they are amazing hunting heads when they deliver orders.

Is there a reason why you have discounted Perdita, Sonnia and Justice? Nino can be great in this sort of game, giving multiple Chatty like auras.

 

Tannen is a bit funny in that his best defense, Manipulative, is lost when you use his best ability, Chatty (well for this game anyway). So if you are activating him early to get Chatty, he becomes a huge target.

 

Also playing the "best" list full of models you're not comfortable with is generally not as good as a "substandard" lsit that you are comfortable with.

 

Its rare that I don't get to turn 5 in tournement games, so I am happy with Bodyguard. As long as you start tun 4, it can score you 2 points, and give your opponent no chance what so ever to react with it, so similar to a lot of other secret schemes.  Yes, if you don't think you're gttign past turn 3, Its low scoring, but most things can be very low scoring if you only get half way through a game.

Plant evidence might be very risky if your opponet has built an anti interact crew like you are thinkign of, as you have to spend quite a few AP getting to the places you can drop evidence, and from the sounds of it, you aren't expecting all that many AP to spend, so that might be hard. Outfl;ank gets harder as the game goes on, which means its actuially fairly easy to score if you are only expecting 3 turns, but 4 or 5 turns games I really don't like it.

[Rurouni Benshin]

I was curious why you didn't bring up Misaki as well. I actually playtested Headhunter with her, and she performed marvelously. The strategies that we played with for this game were Line in the Sand, Entourage, Plant Explosives, Take Prisoner, and Distract. I chose Entourage and Plant Explosives.

 

And as Adran explained, Misaki's "Next Target" trigger makes killing and collecting in a single activation all that much easier. Just place the "head marker" somewhere out of engagement range of an enemy model, push to base contact with it, and as long as you have an AP left, you've got your VP.

 

Bodyguard can still work, but it's also relative to the crew you're playing against. Obviously you would/should be able to perform your activations quickly enough that you're not wasting time. And even against an experienced player (or any player that knows their own crew well), there shouldn't be too much time wasted between turns. However, if you're facing a crew that summons heavily, then obviously with more models on the board, it would mean more activations.  Be mindful of what you're facing when picking this Strategy.

 

Good luck!

[Adran]

 

And as Adran explained, Misaki's "Next Target" trigger makes killing and collecting in a single activation all that much easier. Just place the "head marker" somewhere out of engagement range of an enemy model, push to base contact with it, and as long as you have an AP left, you've got your VP.

 

Good luck!

 

That was Bighammer.

I think that Misaki does her next target trigger push before the head is dropped, because after damaging triggers are done before the model is removed. Not 100% certain on this, but that is how I think the timing should work.

[OneLittleThunder]

 

It's worth bearing in mind, too, that you can pick up head markers dropped by your own models, so if your opponent downs one of your own crew, making sure they're covered to prevent the head being immediately stolen can really help (Ototo and Sidir's Laugh Off abilities stop the enemy moving them away from a marker without an Obey).

 

True. That said, I'm expecting more melee than ranged action, so the heads the opponent generates will usually be behind their models and thus harder to get to (though Ototo's Shove Aside ability helps in that regard...hmm).

 

 

Firstly, I think you are over thinking it far too much. But still, to give you something more to think about...

 

You're mean, you know that?

 

Is there a reason why you have discounted Perdita, Sonnia and Justice? Nino can be great in this sort of game, giving multiple Chatty like auras.

 

I wouldn't say I've discounted them, they just seem like a less good fit than some of the others (assuming an opponent with access to all masters and equal familiarity with them, blah blah blah). Perdita usually tends to be more shooty, which (as you point out) is less of a good fit for Headhunter. Sonnia also seems to work best at range, and Lady J (while an absolute murder machine up close) doesn't generate markers when she kills something, which seems counter-productive in Headhunter.

 

But yes, I'm definitely worried about Nino in this matchup, regardless of the Master.

 

Tannen is a bit funny in that his best defense, Manipulative, is lost when you use his best ability, Chatty (well for this game anyway). So if you are activating him early to get Chatty, he becomes a huge target.

 

True. He needs someone big and tanky to stand behind (ideally someone like Sidir who can take the hits for him). I often like him to carry Smoke Grenades to help give him some survivability, but that may not help as much in a melee-focused match.

 

Also playing the "best" list full of models you're not comfortable with is generally not as good as a "substandard" lsit that you are comfortable with.

 

True, and a lesson that I need to take to heart as I learn the game. I just want to play ALL THE THINGS.

 

Its rare that I don't get to turn 5 in tournement games, so I am happy with Bodyguard. As long as you start tun 4, it can score you 2 points, and give your opponent no chance what so ever to react with it, so similar to a lot of other secret schemes.  Yes, if you don't think you're gttign past turn 3, Its low scoring, but most things can be very low scoring if you only get half way through a game.

 

Well, my tournament experience is somewhat colored by the fact that I'm still relatively new to the game and thus playing slower than I'd like. I suspect that by this time next year I'll be more comfortable with Bodyguard, but perhaps not this time.

 

Thanks to both of you for the feedback!

[OneLittleThunder]

I was curious why you didn't bring up Misaki as well. I actually playtested Headhunter with her, and she performed marvelously. And as Adran explained, Misaki's "Next Target" trigger makes killing and collecting in a single activation all that much easier. Just place the "head marker" somewhere out of engagement range of an enemy model, push to base contact with it, and as long as you have an AP left, you've got your VP.

 

Well, she's been the 10T Master I've been least intrigued by thus far, and (as mentioned) I haven't even painted her yet. I could certainly get her done in time for the tournament, but I'm not sure that's where I want to play my first game(s) with her...

 

As for "Next Target," it does look great - that's one of the reasons I like including the Ronin, since they have it built in as well.

 

Thanks for the input!

[Adran]

Justice will cut peoples heads off.

Her rule states that other models don't generate markers when she kills them, and the head hunter rules state that the model that does the killign generates the marker, so when Justice kills somethign she can still generate the head.

 

Perdita is almost as deadly in close combat as Justice is, gaining that   at  range really ups her damage.

[OneLittleThunder]

I think that Misaki does her next target trigger push before the head is dropped, because after damaging triggers are done before the model is removed. Not 100% certain on this, but that is how I think the timing should work.

 

Hmmm...that would be important to know. If it works that way, the Ronin becomes a lot less appearing in this setup. You're right, triggers are resolved before the model is removed, so I suspect you're right. Boo.

[OneLittleThunder]

Justice will cut peoples heads off.

Her rule states that other models don't generate markers when she kills them, and the head hunter rules state that the model that does the killign generates the marker, so when Justice kills somethign she can still generate the head.

 

Oh, rules! Good point though, and about Perdita as well. So...basically I have no idea what's coming, so I'm just gonna stick to my game, which should have been my plan in the first place.

 

Thanks, all!

[Rurouni Benshin]

I actually plan on using Perdita in an upcoming 40ss tournament. Not sure how she'd perform, but I'll wager she'd be good at Headhunter too.

[Yvarre]

This has been a tough strategy for me in tournaments, though Collette is more threatening to me than Guild...

 

If there is any way you can get them (I got them on Amazon for 10 bucks a month ago), McCabe is really great with his doggies here, as they are mobile and expendable.  I'm thinking LIS and Distract.  It's a bunch of AP, but running a reactivating nimble hound to the corner, dropping a scheme marker, and positioning for your next 2 on the second turn or running out to distact potentially 2 clumped models  adds a good bit of board control, as it's usually gonna be alot harder for them to get to the corner, and if they try to shoot your doggy that's a free head for McCabe, who will probably be interested in getting his badge back anyways.  If the dog has models in range to distract, then the two models probably can't kill it, get the head, and remove their distract condition.  Barring movement tricks like Ryle and Enslaved Nephilim.

 

I've often taken Lynch with Rising Sun here, as Huggy won't drop a head and can tie up a huge chunk of space and AP.  Sure Huggy's defense sucks, but Lynch can always skulk around the board and get thrown by Graves if he needs more mobility.  After they sink a bunch of AP into getting rid of Huggy, Lynch can pop out and 1 shot something unsuspecting (or their bodyguard target) and bring huggy back to at least guard the head, though Lynch works nicely being as cowardly as possible, and maybe huggy just picks it up cause their crew is tied up elsewhere on the board.  Maybe not so great against Sonnia, but she's not so great for this Strat cause she'll just hand out free heads if she kills your stuff.

 

Ronin have the advantage of being able to range out and deny heads by sacrificing themselves once they're at hard to kill; though the performers are the best mercenary here because of Don't mind me (great with Austringer prompt) and their ability to vaporize scheme markers.

 

The combo of Yin and Chiaki stealing AP away with slow and no escape is nice, and McCabe and Chiaki handing out slow is nice with distract too.

 

I also usually include at least 1 illuminated in any list because their combo of killiness and resillience with that ridiculous charge of 8 makes for a great way to pick off weaker models or take on many henchmen and enforcers with minimal support (in this case probably just something mobile to pick up the heads).  I'd definitely take them over Ronin here; though flurry and disguised are nice, Thunders have enough versatility that I think on other oblique solutions before hiring mercenaries.

 

Also, a Samurai with either favor of Earth or Heaven could be really good for going up against constructs and lead-lined coats.  Guild may not have armor as heavily as Arcanists, but with Bodyguard in the scheme pool, I'd be wary of that Francisco with Wade in and Lead-Lined Coat, especially if there is a guardian around.  Cutting through that thing's armor to get rid of the defensive 2 it will likely be handing out to its bodyguard, and then making short work of Franny could be an important 2-3 point denial. Though telegraphing bodyguard that hard is a little silly.  Also, glowing saber...

 

In my book, if you fear Guild more than Collette in this strat and scheme pool, I think you've got what it takes to take the guild down already.

[OneLittleThunder]

 

In my book, if you fear Guild more than Collette in this strat and scheme pool, I think you've got what it takes to take the guild down already.

 

I wouldn't say I fear guild more than Colette, but I at least have a plan for Colette.

[chris_havoc]

If you are expecting to face Constructs then Metal Gamin are not as slow as you might think. For 4ss models they are also very tough to score off of.

 

I agree with what's been said above that playing models you know that are capable, if they aren't ideal, of completing objectives trumps models that you aren't comfortable/familiar with. I would say that you need to also keep in mind Master synergies and not kit out your crew with models that synergize poorly but are suited to schemes. Certainly taking some models for contingencies is a wise move but you'll never account for all of them and in trying to do so you are making it harder to play your game which makes it easier for the opponent to play theirs.

[zFiend]

If you are expecting to face Constructs then Metal Gamin are not as slow as you might think. For 4ss models they are also very tough to score off of.

They sure aren't with Magnetism being a 0 action.

[scarlett fever]

I used to think Misaki got to place the head marker and then push but now I believe it's as Adran states, for the same reason.

 

Looking at those Strats and Schemes I'd be inclined to go for Brewmaster. I've only just started playing him but it seems like a good match.

Brewy, Fingers, Wesley (because Brewy dies easy), Performers, other models to taste. I'd probably go for a Tengu or 2 and Ama No Zako. Unless I'm facing Ressers then you have to take Chiaki.

 

Take Distract and Plant Evidence, or Bodyguard if you're that way inclined, though it's not the best tourney scheme. Outflank is just too hard, unless they have a small crew and you can tie them up.

 

Keep your models reasonably close to one another. Drag a couple of models in with performers then Distract and Paralyse/Brewy bubble them. When the opponent kills your models snatch up the heads straight away with Fingers/Perfomers (Don't Mind Me), deny the opponent heads through this and Chatty. If I go for really killy crews I find there are more heads than necessary and it can be difficult to stop the opponent from scoring.

 

Keep most of your crew on your side of the board and watch for possible Plant Evidence, Use Pay Up, I Saws it First or Still the Earth to take care of enemy scheme markers late game.

Check out where you want the Tengu to drop Plant Evidence. Use them to regen models then turn 4 and 5 drop your markers. Ama No Zako, Fingers and Brewy are all good for this too if necessary.

 

I'd watch for the opponents Bodyguard, Corner is an easy Bodyguard as they can keep the model on their side of the board and still get the points. Brewy has a brilliant targetted takedown in his Hangover, give a model swill and then send in Ama to destroy it. Or if you've taken Yin or they're Living you can always Paralyse it and have Ama Swallow you Whole.

 

Of course in the heat of the game I end up reacting as much as acting, but that would be my general approach.

[OneLittleThunder]

Thanks for the input! I'm probably not going to play Brewie in the tournament because I've never played him before, but I agree that he's a good fit.

 

Most of what you're describing makes good sense to me, but I have to ask - why Chiaki against Ressers in particular? The only thing I see that she particularly offers against Ressers is condition removal in case McMourning shows up, but then that'd be needed against Guild as well. What am I missing?

[Silencer]

Condition removal is golden when you can expect some sort of slow, paralysis, terryfing tests that would go sideways and kick you in the nuts.... Ressers are sort of this bunch + bonus McMourning for boatload of poison removal + Kirai for removing some of her specific conditions like Adversary.

Even removing poison from Flesh Construct that fuels his healing would be good.

[scarlett fever]

If you're taking any healing vs Ressers take Chiaki (or Low Monks). The Hanged's Whispers from Beyond is one of the most annoying actions in the game.

[Dirial]

I actually plan on using Perdita in an upcoming 40ss tournament. Not sure how she'd perform, but I'll wager she'd be good at Headhunter too.

 

She does everything. Like Leveticus. Her strength is that she doesn't have a weakness.

[zFiend]

She does everything. Like Leveticus. Her strength is that she doesn't have a weakness.

And yet you keep on calling her "okay"

[Dirial]

And yet you keep on calling her "okay"

 

Yep. Strong but okay.