reduce yo 0 wounds and being killed

[AoS]

Is this the same timing? I'll give you an example:

Viktoria of blood hit izamu and reduce him at 0 wounds, (killing him?).

When victoria kills, she can do a healing flip, but when izamu is reduced to 0 wounds he make an attack and he is sacrificed.

I can't find a good definition of "being killed" in the rulebook.

If "reduce to 0 wounds" and "being killed" happens at the same time, victoria would use her hability first.

When is a model killed?

[jonahmaul]

AoS you have been given the correct way that these rules interact several times and seem to what want to accept it because it doesn't match what you want to happen.  I'll try another way;

 

When something is reduced to 0 wounds it can be killed or sacrificed but not both

 

In the instance of Izamu this means that he gets to take his attack if killed by an enemy Ml attack and the sacrifices himself (this is important for other rules two because some strats/schemes specify you must kill an enemy model which Izamu wouldn't score for).

 

The Vik only gets to do her heal upon killing something but she did not kill anything because Izamu sacrificed himself so you cannot heal at all.

[jonahmaul]

Also the general timings box doesn't really matter here because that is for when two abilities go off at the same time.  However these do not.  If Izamu's ability stated 'when this model is killed' then you would refer to the timings box as it's the same thing as the Vik but as it states when reduced to 0 wounds (which is before dying/sacrificing) you don't refer to the general timings.

[AoS]

Well, I thought it is the same timing because the faq answer.

Q: If a model with the Burning Condition and the Explosive Demise Ability is killed within range of Sonnia’s Violation of Magic and she chooses to summon a Witching Stalker, is the Witchling Stalker summoned before or after the Explosive Demise Ability occurs?

A: Violation of Magic occurs “when the target is reduced to 0 Wounds.” When a model is reduced to 0 Wounds it is “immediately killed” (Core Rulebook pg. 51) so Violation of Magic and Explosive Demise have the same timing point. In this instance, see the General Timing rules on pg. 46 of the Core Rulebook:

I don't found where is that you can't sacrifice a killed model if you kill and sacrifice a model you only sacrifice that model, because it do not count as killed.

[jonahmaul]

As has been pointed out specific examples in the FAQ should not be used as extrapolations for all timings.  However in the game of Explosive Demise and Summoning a Stalker one happens when it reaches 0 wounds and the other when it is killed and both happen in that example.  In the example that you are giving one happens when a model is killed (Vik heal) and the other happens when reduced to 0 wounds (Izamu) the latter of which results in the model sacrificing itself.  As has been stated you can't be both killed and sacrificed and as Izamu sacrifices himself you can't ever have an opportunity to use the heal ability from the Vik because there is no longer anything killed.

[AoS]

I can accept the timing question, (maybe), but if a model cannot be killed and sacrificed is because if it is sacrificed then the model cannot count as killed. My thougt is not wrong in the way that you can kill izamu reducing him at 0 wounds, and then he is sacrificed, in fact sybelle with her upgrade sacrifice you after damaging this happens after step 5, so if she reduce to 0 wounds she kills you during step 5 and then sacrifice you aplying the trigger.

[CanYaDigIT]

AOS here is why your thinking is flawed. Killed and reduced to zero wounds are not the same thing. Reduced to zero wounds triggers killed unless otherwise noted. Izamu can only be killed by range attacks and assassinations. Melee attacks which reduce him to 0 wounds trigger his warrior's death before he is killed. This causes him to be sacrificed instead of killed. Think of these two as different triggers on Izamu. He can either be a) Killed or warrior's death, but both triggers cant be declared.

[jonahmaul]

Large rulebook page 51:

 

'Effects the sacrifice models remove models from play, but the model does not count as being killed.  Sacrificed models do not drop markers' (my emphasis).

 

You can't be both killed and sacrificed.

 

Think of the steps like this:

 

Normally something is reduced to 0 wounds and immediately killed but an 'reduce to zero wounds' triggers happen (i.e. Izamu, Explosive Demise).  After this step the model is then killed.  However Izamu never reaches this step because he sacrifices himself at the reduce to zero wounds step.

[AoS]

Canyadigit, I'm agree with you. Where is the disagree?

I'm not sure if I express myself good enouhg.

Sybelle example: she attacks a model and activates the trigger which sacrifice the model. She reduce the model to 0 wounds during step 5, so during step 5 the model is killed after step 5 the trigger is resolved and the model is sacrificed.

The model was killed during step 5 and sacrificed after step 5. The model does not count as killed after step 5.

Do you guys have any problemas with this?

[Myyrä]

Canyadigit, I'm agree with you. Where is the disagree?

I'm not sure if I express myself good enouhg.

Sybelle example: she attacks a model and activates the trigger which sacrifice the model. She reduce the model to 0 wounds during step 5, so during step 5 the model is killed after step 5 the trigger is resolved and the model is sacrificed.

The model was killed during step 5 and sacrificed after step 5. The model does not count as killed after step 5.

Do you guys have any problemas with this?

Sybelle doesn't have any triggers that sacrifice models.

[CanYaDigIT]

Sybelles trigger is an assassination on her upgrade.

[zFiend]

Sybelles trigger is an assassination on her upgrade.

It still doesn't sacrifice.

[jonahmaul]

Yep, Sybelle immediately 'kills'.  This isn't sacrificing or reducing to zero wounds.  If you did this to Izamu for example and he was unable to spend the cards or SS to prevent it he would just die.  He would not get to do his own sacrifice ability because he was never reduced to zero wounds.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ummm, yes, and not only with your timing triggers. you've also fundamentally misunderstood the upgrade and it's effects that you are trying to use to bolster your argument.

 

Sybelle's upgrade Bleeding Tongue, gives two triggers. The one we are speaking about is With a Flourish which states: after damaging, immediately kill the target unless it discards two cards or two soulstones. 

 

So where exactly are you getting this sacrifice effect?

[Rob Lo]

You gents have done an admirable job of trying to explain this, and let me say that I believe the intent of Izamu's ability is "he doesn't ever get killed, he gets sacrificed".

 

But you have to admit, the intent and the words written on cards, book and FAQ don't mesh well. Or at all.

 

Example: 

 

Explosive Demise: ... when killed...

Violation of Magic: ...when reduced to 0 wounds...

 

 

Then throw in the FAQ (Guild section, question 5) on those two very things, which says "Violation of Magic and Explosive Demise have the same timing point", which can only mean when killed and when reduced to 0 wounds are the same timing point.

 

 

So then you go to

 

Into the Fray: The first time this model kills.. 

Warrior's Death: ..When reduced to 0 wounds...After completing this action, sacrifice this model.

 

So unless you're saying that "when killed" is different from "When this model kills" (or think 'the first time' is somehow different timing than 'when'), you can exactly fit in the two abilities in question in place of the FAQ. You can say that you can't apply one FAQ answer to another problem, but as written it's the same problem, with the same timings. 1) The Acting model resolves its Abilities 2) The Defending model resolves its Abilities

 

If you follow through on that timing, the heal flip happens first, then Izamu gets his swing, then, only after completing all that , do you instead change izamu from killed to sacrificed, then the ability ends and you carry on and do what you'd normally do with any other sacrificed model.

 

If there were some weird scenario where izamu was the acting model and Blood had a defensive trigger or something that took him to 0 wounds, his ability would happen first, and he'd be sacrificed before her ability happened.

[CanYaDigIT]

There is never a scenario in which Izamu is reduced to zero wounds, killed and sacrificed. A model cant be both. He is either killed, or sacrificed. The healing flip would not occur on a melee attack on Izamu because he isnt killed. He wouldn't count for strats or schemes which required killed. He does not drop markers.

 

The ability does not change what happened to him. He is reduced to zero wounds which is not the same as killed, UNLESS, no triggers exists to be taken. Izamu is usually sacrificed, not killed.

[Shadowfane]

Except it isn't the same problem, because it's discussing Into the Fray and a Warriors Death, not Explosive Demise and Violation of Magic

You say "Throw in the Guild FAQ", but the whole point of the statement in the FAQ about not extrapolating FAQ answers to other situations is because of precisely this argument.

 

If the FAQ for Violation of Magic happened because, for whatever reason, that particular interaction was badly written, you can't then apply it to everything else, when it was the Violation of Magic/Explosive Demise that were writTen wrongly.

 

*edit - also, apparently my word for the day is FAQ.... 3 times in one sentence? whoops...*

[AoS]

Sybelle is bad example, I thought it was sacrificed. Sorry about.

Thanks Rob to understand my point, I'm bad at talking english.

[Rob Lo]

Well, okay, ignore the Violation of Magic question in the FAQ.

 

General, base level question. 

 

Given this at the beginning of the FAQ:

 

"When reading rules, keep in mind that they were written in the English language with all of the restraints and foibles that

come with it; when in doubt, please interpret them with a grain of common sense. The easiest way to misinterpret a rule

is to overthink it."

 

 

 

 

Are the timing of any random rules you read (trigger, ability, whatever) that say "when this model kills" and "when reduced to 0 wounds" the same, or different?

[AoS]

You cannot extrapolate, so this habilities only have the same timing in that case, I'm sorry, but that sounds stupid to me, and apologizeme for that word.

[CanYaDigIT]

for a model to kill, the other model has to be killed, not sacriced. so reduced to zero wounds is not killed.

[Myth]

Fetid Strumpet, on 08 Jul 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

AoS, If your interpretation is correct, which it isn't, then every effect in the game which would fire on being killed because of being reduced to 0 wounds could be activated before any other rules interactions would stop it.

Leveticus would drop a corpse everytime he cycled and enemies could claim full points for assassinate because according to your argument once reduced to 0 wounds, even if something later took it away, there is still a state of killed to squeek effects by. So when leveticus is reduced to 0 wounds he counts as killed, so at that instantl all effects which fire off being killed, Vicks healing, dropping a corpse marker, gaining vp for having killed a model, etc, all get to go off before leveticus ability which says when this model is reduced to 0 wounds it is not killed.

Ressers will be happy because it means they are going to get a corpse everytime izamu "dies" even though he is sacrificed, and bête will get one every time she cycles.

I'm sorry but your interpretation is just plain incorrect.

 

I don't think that is a valid extension of his argument. For one, the other effects in the game which fire on being killed... usually have different wording than Izamu's ability, which make it clear how to handle them. Secondly, I think the timing rules themselves provide a reason why Viktoria healing could trigger from Izamu, but that he still wouldn't drop a corpse marker.

 

First off, let's look at some other models. Bete Noire, for example, specifies that her effect happens "before counting as killed" - and that if successful, "this model is not killed". Bad Juju's upgrade says, "When this model is killed... it is not killed." And uses the keyword "instead". Leveticus says, "When this model is killed... it is not killed." And, again, uses the very important word "instead".

 

Izamu does not use language along those lines. Instead, he has an effect that triggers when he hits 0 wounds. It does not happen "instead" of being killed, nor does it happen "before counting as killed". Those are the keywords in the other models that, in my opinion, make it clear they bypass the normal timing rules on effects that trigger when a model is killed.

 

But with Izamu, we don't have anything like that.

 

As it is, what we know is that he has an ability that triggers when he reaches 0 Wounds. What we also know is that there are rules governing timing when multiple abilities happen at the same time. Let's set the Viktoria example aside for now, since that adds an extra layer of complexity due to the different wording. Let's look at, say, Sonnia's 'Reincarnation' upgrade. When a enemy burning model "is reduced to 0 Wounds", Sonnia can spend some resources to summon a Witchling Stalker.

 

So, let's say Sonnia has set Izamu on fire, and then somehow ends up hacking him to death with her Runeblade. (Somehow). Izamu goes to 0 Wounds. Abilities that occur when he reaches 0 Wounds now process. If two abilities would happen at the same time, what happens? The Active model resolves its abilities first. Thus, Sonnia summons a Witchling Stalker. Then the defending model resolves its abilities - Izamu takes his attack, and then sacrifices himself.

 

At that point, since Izamu he has been sacrificed, the assumption seems to be that no further effects can result from him being at 0 Wounds. Let's stick with that assumption, since otherwise things really spiral into madness. Now, the timing rules don't go into detail on when 'game effects' process - like a model counting as killed for VP purposes, or dropping corpse markers. Since they aren't mentioned in the timing rules, my understanding has generally been that they happen last. Hence, when Izamu sacrifices himself, no VP for the enemy, and no corpse marker.

 

But regardless, I think it is very hard to make an argument that Sonnia (if she is the one to kill him) doesn't get to summon a Stalker off of Izamu. You've got two effects, triggering at the same time, with rules that says her effect goes first.

 

So, that brings us back to Viktoria. Her ability goes off when she kills another model. This is different from a model going to 0 Wds... except that we have an FAQ entry that says it isn't. That makes it extremely clear that a model being reduced to 0 Wds, and a model being killed, have the exact same timing point, as based on the rulebook.

 

Prior to Izamu being sacrificed, he hits 0 Wounds (and immediately counts as killed). Effects that occur when he reaches 0 Wounds go off, as do effects that occur when he is killed. If the acting model (Viktoria) has such an effect, it processes. Then, the defending model (Izamu) has his ability take place. At that point, he is sacrificed, no longer counts as being killed, and no further effects from him being killed are processed.

 

The ultimate culprit here is Izamu's ability. I think the Stuffed Piglet has a similarly problematic ability.

 

Basically, if a model has an ability where it wants to sacrifice itself (instead of dying normally), it really should make it clear that this bypasses the normal timing of events. Bete Noire and others who use terms like "when this model would be killed", or "instead of being killed", or "before this model would be killed" - all of those seem like functional approaches.

 

But Izamu doesn't do that. Which means that one needs to follow the normal timing for such abilities, and that means you get some of these weird cases, and there isn't any way around it outside of just throwing out the timing rules completely.

[AoS]

Nice explanation

I don't see the problem in kill a model and then sacrifice him. If you sacrifice a killed model, it just doesn't count as killed anymore. (After being sacrificed)

[CanYaDigIT]

The entry doesnt say they are the same...they happen at the same time, IF they happen

[CanYaDigIT]

You cant do both.

[AoS]

Where is that in the rulebook?

Is right, you can't being killed and sacrificed because when you are sacrificed you don't count as killed. But that don't means that you can't sacrifice a killed model...

And once you sacrificed him he don't count as killed anymore.