bertmac Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 My take on decembers pawn. Optimal turn 3 attacks 3 overpower 7 cards in hand plus 2 stoned for. 6 dmg flips at - = 27 cards raspy will use half your deck in a good turn so is just as likely to get the bj as the rest of your crew combined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madaxeman Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Another Raspy question - is there a "go to" sequence to get best use out of the apparently-classic Silent One / December Acolyte combo? Assume they are close enough to start trying to kill stuff... Who goes first and what do they do? I always seem to get half way thru a combination and realise I activated the wrong model first...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertmac Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 The few times ive taken raspy ive either drawn or flipped it with her every game so you either have guaranteed hit with overpower or 8 damage with a double blast from a card that most people hold onto until late in the game stopping them from making full use of their hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Taking December's Pawn seems quite a lot like taking out an insurance policy. If nothing bad ever happens, you've essentially wasted your money. If something bad does happen, though, you'll be thankful that the insurance is there so that the catastrophe doesn't ruin your life (or your game, in this case). I like to play as close to the wire as possible - every action should be optimised for maximum effect. Unfortunately, that means that any disruption to the plan is more severe than it would be in a plan with lots of failsafes and redundancies. Paying two stones for the peace of mind that comes from knowing that your Master, at least, is immune to (and actually benefits greatly from) the most disruptive element of the game is a very easy sell for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finwe8 Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I nearly allways take Decembers Pawn. Tina cycles her deck enormously fast. If you get of 3 Decembers curse with triggers (which I do soulstone for) you get 6 Duals. Thats a lot of cards. Additionally if you draw it it is no longer blocking your hand you can cheat it in... Two "red" jokers in hand is, although rare, very scary. You can often force through red jocker damage. Lets talk some math: Base chane for red/black joker: 1/54 With December's Pawn: 1/28 for "red" joker (Goes only for raspy though) Lets assume - One activation - 3 Decembers curse - 2 With Trigger - Dmg flips are negative - No jokers in hand or have been flipped - So far 8 Cards have been flipped (Pre activation) (I tried to choose realistic values and neither on the maximum side nor on the minimum side, in my opinion these values are rather conservative) Deck left befor Tinas activation: 54 -8 = 46 5 Duals -> 5 (Attack flips) + 10(dmg flips) = 15 flipped total from Tinas deck Probability to flip the black joker as red jocker is 15/46 = 0,32 or 32% Thats one activation with very average conditions... And keep in mind you do not only flip the "red" joker, you do not flip the black joker and you are absolutly certain about that! Although keep in mind you can not only flip it for Tina you can cheat it, which skews the probabilities a lot into favor for the upgrade as it gives you six draws per turn + additional surge triggers and whatever to get your use from the upgrade. What this upgrade does for you is not only give you more red jokers, what it does is: - Give you more red jokers - Give you less black jokers - Give you more "red" jokers in hand - Free you somewhat from keeping the black joker in hand - Give you certainty you do not flip the black joker (which allows you, depending on your hand, to be absolutly sure you can force through certain results) - Give you the ability to fish for jokers during tinas activation Maybe a little bit elaboration on the last two point. Give you certainty you do not flip the black joker This is underestimated a lot. It gives much security for planing, as you can be absolutly sure you can force through certain actions (with your hand cards). Give you the ability to fish for jokers during tinas activation Given I have a double negative flip on Tinas dmg. Thats, in absence of jokers, almost certainly week damage. If both jokers are still in the deck and the deck is not too big I ciould cheat that down to a tripple negative... Giving me more chance for a joker. Usually this kind of joker fishing is prohibited due to the black joker (since you could flip either one and the black joker even trumps the red). Tina can do this kind of stuff with December's Pawn. So that was a lot of theory. Now my personal expierience: I have yet to play a game where I do not have gotten my value out of this upgrade. It should be about 10 Games where I took that upgrade and it was allways very very helpful to have an additional red joker for Tina. And on the psychological note: If you get of two "red" joker dmg flips in one activation your oponent is cursing... a lot...and with reason Edit: Well I was not entirly on topic here... The first games with Tina I tried to optimize her dmg output. So going Shattered mirror upgrade, taking Essence of power and keeping an Ice Gamin and an Arcane Effigy next to her. This did not work well as it was very easy for my oponents to play around that and I nearly never got all buffs up before I had to activate Tina. My advise is do not optimize Tina, she is already scary. 1. Go for a crew of frozen heart models which suit your strategy and schemes. Frozen heart is the only synergy Tina really needs. 2. Allways take a look at your options. Decembers Curse is great but paralyze could be the better option (especially with wendigo, it has MI 8 on it's devour...) 3. Ice Pillars!! (I think the upgrade is called Cold Nights, I am bad with names...) Again this works very well with the wendigo as you can have 4 pillars on the field simultaniously. Thats enormous board control 4. Be patient. In my opinion Tina is all about board control. You do not allways have to kill stuff, the threat that you are able to is often enough. Force your oponent in bad positions, pin him there and let him make hard decisions while you go after your schemes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 And on the psychological note: If you get of two "red" joker dmg flips in one activation your oponent is cursing... a lot...and with reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 When I've played Raspy she has never flipped that many cards. Mainly because with cover she haven't had the opportunity to make a lot of effective attacks. Sure sometimes you can mirror around the cover or the Essence of Power can give you for stoning the suit, but those 6 attacks per turn always seemed far away. Also, a lot of the time spending an AP on Ice Pillars have seemed more significant than another (pair of) attack(s), further lowering the number of cards she goes through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joediamond Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I am just more in the camp of guarantees, whenever possible. Upgrades like Arcane Reservoir and Sieze the Day give you guaranteed benefits. December's Pawn MIGHT come up for Raspy, or it might not come up at all, or it might come up on a non-Raspy model. I'm not arguing it doesn't have a chance to be amazing, but when it comes to MAYBE do something good vs WILL do something good, it's tough for me to justify Pawn. Plus, it has a lot of competition. Arcanists are pretty spoiled for good upgrades, in my humble opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 You don't think of December's Pawn as a guarantee that Rasputina will never flip a Black Joker? Arcane Reservoir and Seize the Day are both also amazing, though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joediamond Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I suppose you could think of it that way. But if she never sees the black joker, what have you gained from that 2ss and upgrade slot? Nothing. Like I said, Arcanists have a lot of useful upgrades. I'm practically always taking Cold Nights, so that's one spot down. I can't see myself liking that Black Joker "insurance" enough to give up something like Shattered Heart, Arcane Reservoir, or Seize the Day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertmac Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The OP though is about raspy being a killer the best way to be a killer is flipping the red joker raspy has twice as much chance as anyone else of flipping it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whut Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Raspy has twice as much chance as anyone else of flipping it. If Raspy is: 1) Using all of her actions for attacking 2) Not engaged in combat 3) Spending cards and stones to guarantee Overpower AND win all of her duels Then she, by herself will run through roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the deck, including your hand. However, circumstances this perfect will NOT HAPPEN. She may have more of a chance than any other single model, but she still only has a chance. It will probably happen once per game, maybe twice if you're lucky. Two stones isn't worth that. Two stones can go to using two more overpowers during the game, or Arcane Reservoir. And what is the benefit? Either you flip it on an attack, so you'll probably get a streight damage flip instead of failing, or you will flip it on damage and have one amazing shot instead of otherwise failing. Probably just once per game, for 2 ss. At this point this is a "to each his own" situation. It's a gamble, and if you want to take it then good on you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paradoxstorm Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 My regular opponent hates December's Pawn because it has a bad habit of showing up when it totally wreaks his game. I'm glad I am not the only one who likes this upgrade and plays it regularly. But I agree that it isn't for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
November's Wrath Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 i actually like very much armor of december on raspy. every melee opponent can be simply 1)Sub zeroed through cheat or stone 2) push away thanks to the upgrade gainin +1 armor in the process( no need to rely on Snow Storm) 3) do horrible things to the opponent Simply put it rasputina becomes melee immune and is able to cast directly bumping her efficiency a great deal. shattered heart is imho overvalued, as mirror points tend to dwindle rapidly during the game. you usually get some goodness out of it but for the first turns. armor gives you a bump in resilience and an awesome built in mechanism for escaping melee, you still have the mirror option, but you can live without it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finwe8 Posted July 14, 2015 Report Share Posted July 14, 2015 i actually like very much armor of december on raspy. Agreed! I moved to armor of december in most match ups too. It provides so much utility and security. Although against guild I would probably prefer mirroring more. Since its the same push distance as Tinas walk you get free armor for moving if you do move in a straight line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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