Kogan Style Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Chiaki can be a Bodyguard target, hand out Slow with her upgrade and is generally left alone by the opposition who can precieve her as a non-target. She works well wih a Nurse as she can remove the paralyse condition if you needed to heal a model, or the flip condition if you wanted to give Seamus/Izamu +2 Armour. Sometimes you will get use out of her 0 action, making models insignificant, which can annoy scheme runners no end This 0 action can also bump up her Ca with the trigger, so Chiaki will get better as the game goes on. She can also pass any bonus Chi/conditions to a friendly ancestor within 6" so she could pass her chi onto Yin or Izamu (although it will only help Izamu's healing spell) to make them more effective. I love Bishop and often take him if my opponent declares Neverborn and especially if I think I'll be seeing Lilith on the table (Stake a Claim/Squatter's rights - interact heavy games where the Cherub would shine) I wouldn't say he is resilient though, he needs some healing from others to keep him going. He partners well with Sinister Rep Seamus to reduce opponents WP but it will force you to keep the two close together. I like Izamu (more than Yin) but usually I would be running Dastue Ba as well as she can help move Izamu with her 0 action (and her spells target WP too) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjoewoo Posted July 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 I think belle movement tricks will do it for Izamu getting up the board, especially with not too banged up on Sybelle. Sybelle is hard to drop despite looking over my henchman choices constantly, because her abilities to move Belles that extra little bit and call them to her are amazing in Seamus' crew. I've thought about using Chiaki to blast my own model in the future, in order to raise her Ca stat at minimal damage to myself--I can always heal the belle and remove the same paralyze condition with Chiaki if really needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Not worth it in my opinion. Again, Malifaux is at base a game of AP efficiency. If you spend Chiaki's AP attacking your own models in order to raise her casting, and then spend her AP attempting to heal the dmg you did, just in order to up her casting, consider how many specific cards, and AP you are spending vs what you get out of it. Really not worth it in my opinion. I don't tend to take Izamu with Seamus, I have, on rare occasions, but ultimately there really isn't a good reason to do it. Izamu is a great killy model, but Seamus has nothing that synergies or gets extra use out of him. He has no Wp based defenses like Manipulative or terrifying. He has no Wp based attacks, and is a big melee model with a large range, thus potentially causing issues with Seamus' gun, if you are planning on using it, and requires the support of other models to use well. If you only own one master I can see him getting used more often, but if I feel I need Izamu, I don't tend to run Seamus since Seamus has no special interactions with him. Molly, Yan Lo, Kirai, and even Tara all get better use from Izamu than Seamus does. Believe me I'm not knocking Izamu, just that he has no real reason to ever show up in a Seamus Crew, as there are Killy Models that will offer more benefits with him than Seamus does. Bring Chikai if your opponent declares Ressers. Based on schemes and strats after that. You'll also want to at least consider her whenever you opponent declares outcasts, mainly because Seamus is one of the masters that is absolutely crippled by the Hanged if they land their condition on him. Otherwise she's good, but she's more support, and at some point you need to decide how much support is too much after possibly adding Belles, Nurses, Chiaki... at some point you need other models as well. Again not knocking her, but you have to weigh the balance of what support you need in any particular game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daysleeper Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 ... I love Bishop and often take him if my opponent declares Neverborn and especially if I think I'll be seeing Lilith on the table (Stake a Claim/Squatter's rights - interact heavy games where the Cherub would shine) ... Can you elaborate why? I don't have my cards with me right now and don't see why he would be especialy good against the nephilim. I'd imagine he'd die quickly as both sides try to get into melee fast and Bishop is not the most resilient. I'm happy to learn something new as i have just used Bishop in his first game last weekend with sinister rep. Seamus against Raspy, he killed a blessed, and (almost) two hoarcat prides (the second survived with 1 wound because of a black joker). Then raspy killed him - still worth it though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjoewoo Posted July 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Fetid, what are your thoughts on using Bishop and/or Jakuuna in Seamus crews? I've previously posted about using Jakuuna in a Raspy match up, and you had mentioned she should have been blown up in short order. What kind of match ups would cause you to more regularly take Jakuuna? I've been finding that strategies requiring presence near a certain point on the board for much of the game, e.g. turf war and squatter's rights, are where she should shine, as her built in hazardous aura and unnerving aura can do serious damage without having to attack, plus she's a tarpit herself. That and it seems AP efficient to do minimum 3 damage a turn without attacks to at least one model nearby--Jakuuna can basically only do 2 damage a turn via melee while giving out slow one of those times, so it doesn't seem inefficient to use 1 nurse AP to heal her to sustain 3+ damage between two turns. But, she does blow up against non-Ml/Sh heavy crews, so her passive damage seems like it can be a trap. Same question for Bishop. He does have Wp duels as an option in melee to heal Seamus, and with the mask trigger, can push models away to allow Seamus to shoot without having to worry about getting out of engagement/randomization. That being said, he's 11SS, 12SS with an upgrade, and his Df/Wp stats can leave something to be desired. I'm unsure what I would use him for, and don't know if he's worth the investment. His AP efficiency, however, makes him hugely dangerous with a 12" threat range for charge plus the ability to get 4 attacks off in one turn with a variety of triggers--one that you get to just have from his ability, and any other depending on what you cheat/flip. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 His Df/Wp seems pretty good to me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted July 22, 2015 Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 Both depend on the situation. Jaakuna would not be a regular component of my Seamus crews, in general, but I'd bring her in the odd game where what she brings to the table is worthwhile. Same with Bishop, in his case mainly because of how expensive he is. But both are useful at the right time, but I don't think either would be regular inclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjoewoo Posted July 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2015 His Df/Wp seems pretty good to me..... They're just above average, which isn't bad, just leaves something to be desired . Both depend on the situation. Jaakuna would not be a regular component of my Seamus crews, in general, but I'd bring her in the odd game where what she brings to the table is worthwhile. Same with Bishop, in his case mainly because of how expensive he is. But both are useful at the right time, but I don't think either would be regular inclusions. I'll press on and ask when do you think are the right times? I understand you find Yin very good and a go to, based on your suggestions, I'm just trying to see what the usual suspects in the crew are. I've more or less arrived at: Seamus Sybelle CCK Yin Nurse 1-2x Rotten Belles That's 34SS w/o upgrades or the like, assuming 2x Rotten Belles. Seamus most likely will take 1-3SS worth in upgrades, as his specific upgrades are all pretty good, Sybelle will almost always take one of her specific upgrades and occasionally a general upgrade or both specifics, and Yin will most likely take 1SS for Unnerving Aura. So, that's looking at roughly 37-40SS. In a 50SS game, I'd have room for two more lower costed models and more robust upgrades or I could spring for a second enforcer with possibly one upgrade. Depending on match up this slot is not terribly hard to fill--Chiaki vs. ressers, Hanged vs. a crew that I figure will heal a lot, Jakuuna if I feel the tarpit strategy will work in my favor. But, I'm still new to the game and am seeing how I could fill that extra large slot in different situations--I'm asking model specific because, if I have those models, then I'll have a better understanding of what strat/schemes/match ups make spending my SS on them more worthwhile than having, say, a larger soul stone pool for in game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 They're just above average, which isn't bad, just leaves something to be desired . Well then, Perdita might be your answer. I think she's the only model in the game with better stats on both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kogan Style Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I've thought about using Chiaki to blast my own model in the future, in order to raise her Ca stat at minimal damage to myself--I can always heal the belle and remove the same paralyze condition with Chiaki if really needed. Chiaki's trigger only works on enemy models, so that won't work. Can you elaborate why? I don't have my cards with me right now and don't see why he would be especialy good against the nephilim. I'd imagine he'd die quickly as both sides try to get into melee fast and Bishop is not the most resilient. I'm happy to learn something new as i have just used Bishop in his first game last weekend with sinister rep. Seamus against Raspy, he killed a blessed, and (almost) two hoarcat prides (the second survived with 1 wound because of a black joker). Then raspy killed him - still worth it though I like Bishop vs Neph for exactly that reason. I have a model that wants to get into Melee, they have a whole crew. It means that Bishop will become a target, which eases the pressure on Seamus and others. Bishops ability to heal Seamus pretty reliably thanks to targeting opponents WP and I can dump meds on him to give +2dmg before thinking about Critical Strike means that while he might die, there will be a few corpses lying around him. Usually my first turn will be to give Bishop +2 WK, then using his three 3 AP he can walk for 12" and drop a scheme marker, which Seamus can teleport straight to (with RCK). Another reason I like the Cage Fighter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Can you elaborate why? I don't have my cards with me right now and don't see why he would be especialy good against the nephilim. I'd imagine he'd die quickly as both sides try to get into melee fast and Bishop is not the most resilient. I'm happy to learn something new as i have just used Bishop in his first game last weekend with sinister rep. Seamus against Raspy, he killed a blessed, and (almost) two hoarcat prides (the second survived with 1 wound because of a black joker). Then raspy killed him - still worth it though Df 6 with a built in trigger that hurts models that miss him, thats pretty resilient. You can't afford to just attack, you need to be prepared to cheat to make those attacks against him stick, or you'll come off worse out of the fight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kogan Style Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Especially as you can cheat that damage flip Add Decaying Aura and you have a good Lilith killer (when Assassinate is in the pool). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjoewoo Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Thanks guys. Most of the comments go around Bishop being able to do lots of damage and mentioning that at Df/Wp 6, he's not bad. That is true, just in a game where those numbers are roughly +1 on the average, it becomes meh on an 11 cost mercenary. Not knocking bishop, I'm asking about him because I want to know when he fits into a Seamus crew most effectively. Like, what factions does he do very well against and for what strategies/schemes? I imagine that going against low Wp value teams, or even just avg. Wp value teams, is a good thing in the slightly more specific but still abstract Seamus crew. This allows him to force the opponent to defend with Wp and allows him to heal Seamus on successfully winning the attack flip. For schemes and strats, I'm unsure which ones he would be great for. Kogan mentioned assassinate--once my opponent declares Neverborn, without knowing the master, wouldn't it be kind of risky to choose bishop? Against lillith or dreamer, he's not bad. Going against Pandora or Zoraida, though, and I'll unlikely be able to keep engaged on Pandy and Obey will make me weep. I suppose though Bishop would make up for his cost if he killed non-master key units, like kade, candy, etc. I was thinking that Bishop with Unnerving, at a whopping 12SS, would still be good for turf war and squatter's rights. Focusing mostly on schemes, I think he's probably a better addition for the killy ones rather than the scheme running ones, though I guess he can engage to let scheme runners do their thing before he dies. Especially as you can cheat that damage flip Add Decaying Aura and you have a good Lilith killer (when Assassinate is in the pool). You can cheat Bishop's ability?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 You can cheat Bishop's ability?! It'S a normal damage flip. Thus, as long as it's not on , you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjoewoo Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 It'S a normal damage flip. Thus, as long as it's not on , you can. Sweet mother of God... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Sweet mother of God... Bishop has a well deserved reputation as the king of Malifaux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 What? It's ok at best. You have to win the duel against someone who knows what can happen if they lose, and if you cheat up its only 4 dmg Max requiring a severe card from hand. Additionally it's a trigger, so anything that shuts down triggers shuts it down. It's ok, and I like bishop, but he's really really expensive for a fairly easy to kill model, and that's even before you start thinking of upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjoewoo Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 So in what kind of situations would you use him? I've been thinking of getting him as an option, but am less and less sure given his incredible cost in game, and am thinking I could save the money for a more effective model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kogan Style Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 Not knocking bishop, I'm asking about him because I want to know when he fits into a Seamus crew most effectively. Like, what factions does he do very well against and for what strategies/schemes? I imagine that going against low Wp value teams, or even just avg. Wp value teams, is a good thing in the slightly more specific but still abstract Seamus crew. This allows him to force the opponent to defend with Wp and allows him to heal Seamus on successfully winning the attack flip. For schemes and strats, I'm unsure which ones he would be great for. Kogan mentioned assassinate--once my opponent declares Neverborn, without knowing the master, wouldn't it be kind of risky to choose bishop? Against lillith or dreamer, he's not bad. Going against Pandora or Zoraida, though, and I'll unlikely be able to keep engaged on Pandy and Obey will make me weep. I suppose though Bishop would make up for his cost if he killed non-master key units, like kade, candy, etc. What I actually said was when an opponent declares Neverborn and I think I'll be seeing Lilith on the table due to Stake a Claim/Squatter's rights or any interact heavy scheme pool where a cherubs ability to reduce the cost of an interact action would be optimal. That is a pretty specific set of circumstances. Bishop can be good for Frame for Murder as he isn't very resilient but is often seen as a missile aimed at the opponents master. with 3 AP he can hand out 3 Distracts/Cursed Objects if you really needed him to. 3 AP is very useful for a lot of schemes. A perfect Storm of events can see Bishop hitting for 6/7/8 damage which is accomplice'd from the Nurse that gave him the meds to pump up his Ml damage and you get the from the card as well as adaptive without your opponent getting the chance to intervene. I would discount him in a pool that has Murder Protege in it. Bishop is an option, like most models in a Seamus Crew. I wouldn't build him in at all times but its always nice to have a model that offers some synergy with Seamus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 Bishop is a toolbox. He is the solution to pretty much any Malifaux problem thanks to his garenteed Triggers and his ability to pick the stat he wants to attack. Buit this versitility does come at a price. So against any one problem, there are geneally better options. But they are normally worse at other things. His biggest weakness (in my mind) is against Ranged attacks. But on a board that he can use the cover well, he is probably good against them, the ability to walk from out of sight and still charge can ruin a ranged attackers day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 Also, his total Cg range is what, 13"? There aren't that many ranged attackers who can beat that range or kill him in one go. There are of course some, before you try to correct me by presenting a list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 Assuming a walk then charge plus ml range, 12". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjoewoo Posted July 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Hmmm, I've been using Yin for my last couple games, and her to attack and damage flips is pretty good as the general defense. She just doesn't move very far, but is a pretty good tar pit with a damaging disengage and Ml 6. Still on the fence about Bishop. I'd really like him to shore up what I think is my current large hole in my crew: solid melee. In a game against Von Schill and against Raspy, I'm having a tough time dealing with the melee heavy models because the standard belles, Sybelle, and Seamus don't do particularly well in melee combat--or at least not on their own at my play level. I can only do so much with comply tricks and the instant death triggers when they happen. Yin seems my best option at 8/9SS with an upgrade, and she can get pretty dumb with nurse, but I'm a little concerned about not having two options on the board. Or, is that a trap in wanting too much of something and sacrificing what Seamus is really good at? And for this, what I mean is that Seamus crews are really more board manipulation for scheme running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kogan Style Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 I don't understand the last sentence. I think at some point you'll just have to put down some models and see what happens. Malifaux has so many moving parts that trying to engineer perfect storms to get the absolute maximum out of any situation will just distract you from playing the game and completing the objectives. If you try to cover every scenario you will end up with a crew that doesn't deal with any of the situations particularly well. Within the Resurr faction we do have Izamu, Rogue Necromancy, Punk Zombies and others that can deal good damage (and can be boosted with the Nurse) if you want to deal with Melee. Again its all optional, find what works for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 I agree with Kogan. You don't HAVE to have anything other than models that can achieve VP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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