Iron Quill Discussion!

[edonil]

Hey everyone, hope the day is going well. So, this is an open discussion about the future of the Iron Quill to discuss any changes you guys (the competitors and readers) might have that you want to suggest. The Iron Quill has been running for...two or three years, I forget exactly how long. It's been a pleasure and an honor to officiate it, and I don't intend to stop now! However, the Iron Quill has also remained mostly unchanged during that time. Granted, that might continue to happen, but I do hold to a belief that 'We've always done it this way before' is a terrible reason to not at least discuss change.

 

So, to kick things off, I want to post up the current rules of the Iron Quill, including an unofficial one that runs in the background.

 

The Iron Quill is a writing contest that takes place every month where the winner receives a free random box set from Wyrd. It’s an exciting competition and a great place to hone your skills and get some constructive feedback.

The Rules

• You must post your story in The Writing Room by the submission date with the following posting format: Iron Quill – Name of the round – Name of your story. Nothing else is needed to sign up, but please post in this thread with a link to your story when completed.
• Your story must be no more than 1,750 words and be a self-contained story set in the world of Malifaux.
• Any story must include at least two of the Ingredients for the current round. When you use the ingredients, keep in mind they don't need to be literal, please feel free to be creative with them!

As the stories are completed, this post will be updated to contain a listing of all the submissions. You are welcome to edit your story up until the submission date.

Winning
The winner will be selected by overall score, as determined by two methods:

• A public poll will be created where anyone can vote on their favorite story. Each vote will be worth 1 point. Authors of submissions can vote in this way.
• A private poll of the authors where they pick their favorite story and a runner-up. These votes are weighted; the favorite story gets 3 points, the runner-up gets 2 points. These votes should be submitted to me by forum PM.

All votes must be submitted by the voting date or they won’t count for scoring. You cannot vote for your own submission. If you are an author, you must submit votes for the private poll or you will be disqualified.

 

Now, the extra bit is that the winner and runners up will pick the Ingredients for the next round. Winner picks two ingredients, rest are split up as needed. (There was an exception, I take blame for the latest round. I had some good ideas I wanted to use! lol)

 

 

With that done, here's a little of the philosophy running through my head where it concerns the Iron Quill so you can see where I come from. From the beginning, the Iron Quill has served one primary purpose- to get people writing. Everyone from novices to experts, to give them a monthly story prompt to work on if they need it. The second purpose was to create a safe place for people to get feedback on anything they might want. The final purpose was bragging rights, in the form of ranking the stories. To me, the competition is the least important part of the Quill. But, with the primary reward being bragging rights, and later a say in the Ingredients for the next round, the Weighted Poll for the Authors always made sense because I wanted the people who participated to have the most say in who got those bragging rights.

 

Now, there have been some changes. The stories have gotten a little longer, and the Ingredients have had a new category added. The biggest change is the most recent- official sponsorship from Wyrd, with prizes awarded to first place. Because of this, I think it appropriate to discuss how the winner is picked. Even if nothing changes, the floor is open to anyone with an opinion. Which is an incredibly dangerous thing to say, I know.

 

 

So, to Quill writers and readers, new and old, you have the floor. What do you think? Any suggestions, comments, opinions on the future of the Quill? And yes, I do already know the bit about me posting things up in a more timely manner, so we'll skip that one. One thing I do know I'll be changing already is dropping the Voting date thing, it creates too much confusion for everyone involved, lol.

[admiralvorkraft]

Well I clearly do better with the author vote than with the public one, so I think it should stay.

 

I actually really enjoy the Quill as-is, but I'm also open to change if somebody more creative than I comes up with a way to make this thing better.

[Laatija Gray]

This part of the rules has always thrown me a little:

 

if you are an author, you must submit votes for the private poll or you will be disqualified.

It sounds like you get the boot if you don't vote. Which is pretty sucky. Can we eliminate that?

[Absolution Black]

This is a great competition and im only ashamed i havent competed for a long time. I guess it is still structured the same as first conceived?

I dont personally have a problem with keeping it as it is but i will have a think and if something pops up will post it here!

I will also try and write more...that is if anyone wants me too!

[Victoria]

I think you should elect judges each time a new story period begins.  Different ones each time!  Maybe three, thats a nice number.

 

The authors shouldn't vote.

[Mako]

The bits I liked were that it was only for bragging rights and all the authors were encouraged to read, comment and vote on each other's work. It generated a little cluster that always welcomed in new writers and didn't actually have anything more than a light hearted nod towards actually being a competition. After all, who better to comment on stories than the other authors?

Too many people used to enter and never bother looking at anyone else's stuff, which was fixed by the 'vote or you can't win' rule for the entrants. That was a pretty good stable setup to my mind.

Sadly, I think the time it was only for bragging rights is long gone...

Oh, and sort that edonil guy out, he's trouble!

[Haunter]

I'm a relative newcomer to Iron Quill, having entered in the last few months.  I really like the format as-is.  I like the weighting of the authors' votes - it feels like a perk of participation.  When I write and enter something in the contest, I feel invested in the process and I like feeling like I can help propel my favorite stories toward victory.  I like that those who actively participate get heavier say in who gets those all important bragging rights for the month. That said, I'm obviously a huge fan of non-writing readers voting because we want people to read and enjoy and feel like a part of the community too!

 

Following from Laatija Grey's comment, what was the logic in the rule that writers had to vote lest they be disqualified?  I don't mind it as a rule because I really like having the opportunity to vote and can't see myself not doing so.

 

Am I alone in not finding the voting date confusing?  'Vote by X date' seems straight forward in theory (taking aside poor Edonil's technological follies).  How would you determine a voting cut-off that is clearer?  I think a clear cut-off date is important so there's at least nominal pressure to cast your votes.  Given infinite time, many people will procrastinate infinitely.

 

When I first started I wondered how the ingredients were chosen.  Once I placed in the top 3 I saw behind the curtain.  I think it's a very elegant way of ensuring a random and interesting mix, which is a big part of the fun for me.  I love having to figure out how to build a story around a sometimes very random collection of elements.

 

The addition of prize support is an amazing boon (thanks Aaron et al.!!)  The idea that I can get toys for doing something I love already is pretty amazing.  I suppose my question is if people feel like that changes anything?  Writers - has the addition of prize support changed how you feel about writing in Iron Quill, or how you participate?  Non-writers, how do you feel about people winning free swag for participating in a community-building activity?  Is it a slippery slope where people will suddenly be creating contests in hopes of getting prizes?  Is it harmless and cool, or a step on the path to an entitled grabby-hands Dark Side?

 

@ Victoria - I'm curious to hear more about the idea of having judges.  How would you see them being selected?  Would they have to reach consensus?  What sort of model would they use for coming to it?

 

I'd be curious to hear from people who might like to enter, but haven't yet thrown their hat in the ring.  What would help make it more accessible for new writers?

 

For me, discovering Iron Quill has been a huge booster for my nascent writer-brain.  It's short and manageable (I have small kids, so hobby time is very limited), has enough structure that I have a good frame to work in, and it's reinforcing to participate in a community like this.  I like feeling challenged by other writers' stories and poetry - it sets a bar for me to aspire to, and some of the feedback discussions that have come from it have been very fruitful.  I feel like each month I get a little sharper in my ability, which feels good.  I feel like some of the regular writers have way better writing chops than I do, and I learn from reading their stories.  When I see someone's work and I find that I have opinions on how to improve it, it feels good to see that I know something and might be able to help improve someone's game.

 

TL;DR I like the Iron Quill format just as it is, but if others see improvements I'm probably game for whatever.  Have contest, will write.

[Ferossa]

Lots of good feedback already.

 

I find it incredibly hard to choose first place, and would like to see sponsorship increased for the runner-up. The last three runners-up have been too good not to reward imo. Maybe it's just me, but I get excited when I see good things happening to people and I like seeing that spread around the forums.

 

I'd like to see genre challenges in addition to the ingredients. Yes, Malifaux is a horror game, but the canonical stories are full of drama, intrigue, and humour. I'd like to see some challenges that focus on things like tone and atmosphere.

 

In the vein of the Judge's Challenge, I think it would be interesting to have a monthly writing exercise for constructive criticism and feedback (with a limit of >1,000 words). The full stories are really good, but I think all of us have issues as writers that we'd like to work on, and this would provide an avenue for working on those issues outside of the judging. Basically, if people are really interested in creating a writing group complete with constructive criticism, I'd like to make that happen in an arena separate from the competition. (If people want this, I'd be happy to run it. I know Edonil is busy and already gives us everything he(?) can.)

 

In terms of new writers, I think Iron Quill is very welcoming, but the close to 2k word limit can be daunting for new people. I'd like to see some challenges for format (short story, blank verse poem, drabble (exactly 100 words), ballad, play script, etc.) that bring people out of their comfort zone. It's not a challenge if it doesn't challenge you, right?

 

Overall? Iron Quill is great and the community is great. There's room to grow, but I wouldn't say anything is broken.

 

Edit: I would change the start/finish to the first/last day of the month. So voting would finish in the first week, and writers can immediately start on a new story.

[edonil]

Answering a couple questions that are my area of things to explain:

The bit about disqualification for not voting came about from a situation, a couple times actually, where a writer did not vote and would have won the free box set, but a vote for anyone would have dropped them to second place. And this was after I reached out to the author a few times to get them to vote. It struck me as rude and somewhat unfair to the rest of the entries, so I added that rule.

The problem with the voting date bit is that announcing the voting date along with a submission date at the front page confuses me versus just one date. And it almost meant Ferossa didn't have an entry this round, which I think is unfair. So, it would be me going back to the old format of telling the voting deadline when the voting thread is posted.


And Ferossa, if you would like to take over the Judge's Challenge, that would be great! It was, unfortunately, a highly optimistic goal of mine at the time which got ruined by some mental health issues. And possible other formats could definitely be fun, I'd be up for seeing that happen. And yes, I am a he, lol.

[Laatija Gray]

Going back to that disqualification rule, I still don't like it. I didn't vote one round because I had an extremely busy month and hadn't had time or energy to give all the entries a fair read so I didn't feel like I could objectively vote for favorites. So I was essentially disqualified for not wanting to be shallow and uninformed (not that my entry that round was much to sniff at). That sort of rule also opens up the pressure for you, Edonil, to wait and wait and wait for votes, even well past the cut-off date because I know you don't like to leave people out.

 

Personally, as an author, I want to vote because I truly believe a story is excellent (it was not hard to vote this last round), not because I'm worried about being disqualified.

[Brewmaster]

I dig the rules as is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, you wanted more writing huh? I'm not sure how the current system can be improved. The amount of time for writing seems fair, there's enough open-ended elements to keep it interesting, people who do a good job of writing get to help shape the next writing challenge. Having definitive cut-off times for voting are kind of important if only for the fact that it keeps things moving. I can see where Mako's coming from though with bragging rights versus actual prize thing.

 

Personal Opinion: Keeping the 'cool' voting to the authors means the people who invested time in crafting stories can reward their fellow writers. Now that there's actual prize support, arguably writers should be held to a higher level of responsibility in meeting deadlines and requirements.

[Haunter]

I am more interested in the bragging rights and community participation than the prize support.  Not to downplay how excited I'd be to win free toys - a box set is a massive gift in my current spot in life.  I was excited to write before I knew about the tangible rewards.  I'm just really pleased to be involved in a community of interesting, thoughtful, and talented writers (writing geek fan fic to boot!)  If the prizes disappeared tomorrow, I'd still be excited to jump in the ring next month.

 

When I first started in I found the 1750 word limit intimidating because it was so short.  I tend to run long (obviously) so I wasn't sure how to tell a whole story in only 1750.  That's been part of the fun challenge.  I think Ferossa's Judge's Challenge ideas are interesting, and I'd be game to participate in them when I can.

[Kadeton]

I still haven't got my box set from my win last year.

 

Other than that, I'm happy with the current rules. I think they encourage a great mix of new prompts, and I like the gentle pressure that author voting creates for authors to read each others' work.

 

If I was to change anything, it would be the word limit. There's already a tight time deadline - if someone wants to churn out 3000 words in that time, why not? That's still a really short story.

[Mako]

The original test version of the quill was 3000. It was a massive amount of work to read and comment/vote on everything, so people didn't always. The tighter word count reduces that, and also provides a harder limit - staying within it is actually a bigger challenge than running on to 3000 I'd say, as you can't let yourself get sidetracked and need to keep the story tight.

[Kadeton]

Yep, I get the bite-size thing, and it's definitely an interesting challenge to trim a story down to the bare essentials. It makes the stories easily digestible - five minutes' reading or so. I wouldn't mind seeing some longer stories as well, though.

 

As context, the last story I was hired to write was ten thousand words, and it still felt pretty short!

[Patzer]

Why not switch it up a bit! Have a month with a limit of maybe 700, and another with 3000. While keeping the current word limit as the mainstay.

[edonil]

What about doing a quarterly longer Quill? Something seperate, maybe 5k, which would have a quarterly submission date along with the normal Quill's running at a shorter word count.

[Mako]

Heh, I'd say bigger stuff would fit nicely in the writing room - poor edonil already has his hands full!

Regarding the whole requirement to vote thing, when I used to enter I made a point of reading and commenting on people's stories as a matter of courtesy to my fellow writers, so it was easy to vote afterward. Back then, a lot of us tried to comment on every story.

Now life can get thoroughly in the way, but really if there's time to write there's probably time to read at least one or two stories and post a little comment. Then a quick message saying "couldn't vote, but have tried to comment on the ones I could read" or even "no time to vote this month, sorry" stops edonil waiting about for votes that won't show. Whether he considers it fair for that person to be allowed to win or not is up to him, but in the end, if winning is really important to someone the conditions that are required to do so must be met. I'd have no issue saying "Can't vote, sorry. Guess I can't win this one!", because it's the writing, reading and talking about it with other writers that motivates me.

That's also why I don't like the prize, it sometimes makes people keen to win rather than keen to be involved with the writing community. I don't say that necessarily applies to anyone here though, of course, I can't make that kind of judgement

[edonil]

Okay, so, I said I'd have this up for a week and we're almost there. Before we go on to the next round, is there anything else people want to add? As things stand right now, I think for the most part everyone is okay with where things are.

 

I will say that I do intend to keep the disqualification rule in there, unless many more people have a problem with it. If someone has a problem with being able to vote, I might be willing to make an exception, but the reality is that if one author doesn't vote it can, and has, provided massive skewing on the final results. And as far as waiting on authors to vote, this rule was put into place also because I was already delaying announcing the winner because of authors who never got back to me before I instituted it. This way, it's on the authors to make sure they vote on time, or get in touch with me.

 

The two bits that I know I'd like to try to incorporate would be the longer word length (perhaps allow for serial chapter entries?), and I think that should either be a quarterly or bimonthly thing personally myself (the Steel Quill, perhaps?), and I think the genre/tone thing could be interesting. I'm not sure exactly how to include that second one, so if anyone has any specific ideas on how to do so I'd be interested to hear them!

[Snaphance]

I have not yet participated but figured I'd toss in a couple of ideas.

 

It might be fun if  more than just the theme changes: change some rules from contest to contest.

* Two points of view: A 2 part contest where the author tells many of the same events but from two completely different POVs.

* Elimination series: Participants write only a short intro scene. Votes are taken and then only the top half of winners move on to write an additional scene for the competition. Votes are taken again and only the top two winners write a final scene (this would be an exercise in hooking the reader).

* Personally I'm intimidated by not fully knowing all the fluff of Malifaux. If there is something in the Chronicles which directly relates to a given month's challenge it would be good to point it out. Some challenges could be required to directly riff off some given existing material. Alternatively some contests could forbid having any known masters or henchmen from making an appearance.

* Exquisite corpse. Participants write a scene. Then the entries are passed in a round robin to different participants to continue each story. Awards would be given for good beginnings and good endings.

* Mix up the length both in word count and deadlines from contest to contest.

[Kadeton]

Personally I'm intimidated by not fully knowing all the fluff of Malifaux. If there is something in the Chronicles which directly relates to a given month's challenge it would be good to point it out. Some challenges could be required to directly riff off some given existing material. Alternatively some contests could forbid having any known masters or henchmen from making an appearance.

 

Don't be. Just take the view that all existing stories are just that - stories - and don't necessarily reflect the "reality" of Malifaux. Every narrator is unreliable. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. (Incidentally, this was the smartest thing that Games Workshop ever did.)

 

I'd also advise people in general that using established characters is generally seen as less creative than introducing new ones - a cameo can be fun where appropriate, but telling a story from a major character's POV means you probably won't do as well as if you'd created a new character for yourself (and you're far more likely to run into the "fluff problem" where your version of the character doesn't match the reader's expectations).

[Ferossa]

I have not yet participated but figured I'd toss in a couple of ideas.

 

It might be fun if  more than just the theme changes: change some rules from contest to contest.

* Two points of view: A 2 part contest where the author tells many of the same events but from two completely different POVs.

* Elimination series: Participants write only a short intro scene. Votes are taken and then only the top half of winners move on to write an additional scene for the competition. Votes are taken again and only the top two winners write a final scene (this would be an exercise in hooking the reader).

* Personally I'm intimidated by not fully knowing all the fluff of Malifaux. If there is something in the Chronicles which directly relates to a given month's challenge it would be good to point it out. Some challenges could be required to directly riff off some given existing material. Alternatively some contests could forbid having any known masters or henchmen from making an appearance.

* Exquisite corpse. Participants write a scene. Then the entries are passed in a round robin to different participants to continue each story. Awards would be given for good beginnings and good endings.

* Mix up the length both in word count and deadlines from contest to contest.

 

This is what I want to do for the writing challenge (Editor's Desk?) and feedback. So you WILL see it in a week or two!

 

I do not think we should have a longer Quill. 2-3k words is the maximum accepted length for short fiction in most publications. Nearly doubling that creates an undue burden on readers and voters. I do not want to read 50,000 words of Malifaux fanfic. Honestly, I find the submissions now to be an overwhelming amount of fanfic.

 

People wanted editor feedback? I haven't read a story for Iron Quill that couldn't be improved by cutting at least 250 words. Genre fiction, and fanfic especially, tends to be wordy, bloated, and pretentious. Genre fiction is persistently underestimated and under-reviewed due to those issues, and I think as writers we have a responsibility to hone our craft and elevate the genre.

 

I think if people want to do longer fiction, we should focus on serialised fiction. As long as the link is posted in Iron Quill, I don't care if it's the first chapter or the fourteenth. I'd like to see something like [sTORY TITLE] (Iron Quill) and then links to each part in the first post. If that takes off, I'd rather vote at the end of year for the best finished novella.

 

TL;DR a potential 50k word dump can murder your ability to participate in judging. If people want to write longer fiction, I'd rather they plot their story and then serialise it. And it's much easier to follow a few chapters a month than one enormous story.