Patzer Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 First of all let me begin by saying, Mortimer is great. Not ok, not good, not very good, but great. There is no argument against that. He is one part of one the best Batman-Robin tandems in the game. The things he brings to a Nicodem crew is seemingly endless: reliable corpse marker generation; Chatty to protect Nico from ever hearing any messages; one of the games filthiest movement actions; a very potent shovel... etc, etc. What all of that said, to me, he feels a bit like a golden straight jacket. He is outstanding, but is it worth it to sink in 9 to 13ss to him nearly every game? Probably, but I don't want to. I feel that at times Nicodem can do more than fine without him while being more offensive. The scrap yard tactic where you summon heaps on turn 1 or 2 might not always be the best, I have seen it back-fire numerous times, and Mortimer is a key cog in making that happening. Also, Mortimer is a crutch for most Nicodem players, it would be fun to see some outside the box thinking from the camp So, some food for thought to all Nicodem opponents and players out there. Nicodem without Mortimer: would you try it, what will work, when is it best to opt for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 I was thinking of a list for a game I'm playing this week yesterday and wondering whether I could put Killjoy in my list because of Undead synergy with Nicodem but couldn't face the 25-27SS cost with Mortimer involved too and so Killjoy got dropped. I don't think that Mortimer is a crutch for Nico in the same way that Francois is considered a crutch for every Guild Master ever (not that I agree with that) but rather he is necessary to get Nico doing his thing. Nico needs corpse counters and if he hasn't got them then your Master is not doing his thing very effectively. Mortimer is the most reliable way of getting corpse counters (multiple if you take Corpse Bloat which I always do) and he has some other very lovely tricks that you've mentioned. If I was playing Turf War or Reckoning and was using Nico more for his support abilities (i.e. Aura and giving out Fast like candy) then I might consider not taking Mortimer because you could put the SS to a beatstick but I think 95% of the time if I take Nico then Mortimer is coming along for a ride. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 I don't think that Mortimer is a crutch for Nico in the same way that Francois is considered a crutch for every Guild Master ever (not that I agree with that) I have to say that if I could take Francois in Guild, I totally would. That bugger is the Schnitzel! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDisaster Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 I've ran Nico without Morti before. I used the Valedictorian instead for a game of Reckoning. I used a couple of Canine Remains to pump out some markers early on to summon some bare essentials (Belles and what not) and then went about killing stuff to generate more Corpses for Extra summons as and when needed. Rather than summoning all game like almost every Nico player I've ever faced I actually supported my crew with heals, buffs etc. If I recall I summoned a couple of Iron Zombies and a Belle and left it at that. The rest of the game was spent healing and dishing out Fast / Slow. It was really fun and my opponent was quite surprised when I beat him to death with a summoner in Reckoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 If Valedictorian rocks Corpse Bloat, she can give you that necessary first Corpse and later be healed by Nico's blasts. She is Undead, after all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Rather than summoning all game like almost every Nico player I've ever faced I actually supported my crew with heals, buffs etc. If I recall I summoned a couple of Iron Zombies and a Belle and left it at that. The rest of the game was spent healing and dishing out Fast / Slow. It was really fun and my opponent was quite surprised when I beat him to death with a summoner in Reckoning. I tend to summon 3-5 models over the course of the game but spend a lot of my AP giving out Fast to key models or Healing. I think viewing Nico as just a summoner is a mistake for the reasons you've highlighted very articulately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterDisaster Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 I tend to summon 3-5 models over the course of the game but spend a lot of my AP giving out Fast to key models or Healing. I think viewing Nico as just a summoner is a mistake for the reasons you've highlighted very articulately. Agreed, because he can summon 2-3 models a turn doesn't mean he should be. That's Ramos' playstyle, not Nico's. I've always seen Nico as a Support Master first and foremost and a Summoner second. No other Resser offers the same amount of support as he does and it's insane to ignore that. I'll often hire in the expensive or living models I require, summon the scheme runners, the odd Punk / Iron Zombie and obligatory Belle or two and leave it at that then spend the game keeping my models alive, buffing them, debuffing the enemy or re-summoning anything that has died. I've played against people who just spam summons all game long and whilst it's a strong way to play Nico I think it's pretty narrow minded. Playing without Mortimer often forces you to play differently because you've not got a ready supply of corpses to summon from and it's really good fun. Similarly to how playing McMourning without Transfusion takes you away from the all too easy Poison Bomb. Nico is more than a one dimensional summoner and I really wish more people would see that. Even with Mortimer you don't have to have him spamming corpses all game, remove Corpse Bloat from the equation and he can help with movement tricks, poison charges on Canines and Shikome etc and can deny a massive area for interaction purposes and even drop the occasional corpse every now and then if you really need it. Another Henchman I've used quite frequently with Nico is Toshiro. Having those extra buffs is just hilarious! I don't make Toshiro do any summoning, he's just there to further enhance undead minions with his buffs which happily stack with Nico's and then send that big old bag of wounds in to murder stuff along with a punk or two. Glorious! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Another Henchman I've used quite frequently with Nico is Toshiro. Having those extra buffs is just hilarious! I don't make Toshiro do any summoning, he's just there to further enhance undead minions with his buffs which happily stack with Nico's and then send that big old bag of wounds in to murder stuff along with a punk or two. Glorious! Yeah, I've taken Toshiro with Nico a few times and the double-up Auras are gross. Punk Zombies become so insane it's glorious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Well I take Mortimer always with Nicodem. Always. I can see merit and fun for a change game play experience with leaving him home. I might actually start reading into this bit more. Could Mortimer be replaced in my poison Nicodem list? I just like that he churns out two corpses a turn, so turn 2 my poison list is in full force with 2 full health shikomes. Hm.. Good topic. I do think it's possible to replace him not sure is it wise in a competitive setting but as I don't enjoy those settings this sounds super fun. Patzer. I'd say as you brought this up, you give it a go (what he said) and report back how it went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Do you take Sebastian as well to give out extra healing for Mortimer in Nico's aura? I've never run a poison Nico list. I see this as Doug's thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Do you take Sebastian as well to give out extra healing for Mortimer in Nico's aura? I've never run a poison Nico list. I see this as Doug's thing! I run Nicodem with poison and Doug as summoner nowadays. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Do you take Sebastian as well to give out extra healing for Mortimer in Nico's aura? I've never run a poison Nico list. I see this as Doug's thing! Lately, zFiend has been experimenting with McM without Posion Bomb, and Nico with lots of Posion. He has essentially switched them. Seems to work surprisingly well, I gather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 I can definitely see some nasty Poison shenanigans with Nico because of how well Mortimer can hand out poison too. But as he can't really do anything nasty with that Poison (other than the things like (1)AP charges that can happen in a Doug list anyway) I tend to leave that to the good Doctor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 McMourning can't give out fast to shikomes though. Nor plus flips. Nor summon them. Nicodem does all those things easily. There's not Expunge but if you have two fast shikomes with plus flips to attacks and damage with fast.. Well you don't need Expunge all that much (can't believe I said that..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 McMourning can't give out fast to shikomes though. Nor plus flips. Nor summon them. Nicodem does all those things easily. There's not Expunge but if you have two fast shikomes with plus flips to attacks and damage with fast.. Well you don't need Expunge all that much (can't believe I said that..) You could always take a Performer, although I know you like your girls more... well... dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 You could always take a Performer, although I know you like your girls more... well... dead. I actually though about getting performers at some point and paint them dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 I'm painting up a Marionette to be a Performer. I do love Shikome, I can't wait until the new models come out as they are ace. They are my most summoned model with Nico and I've even been known to hire them with McMourning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patzer Posted May 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Hm.. Good topic. I do think it's possible to replace him not sure is it wise in a competitive setting but as I don't enjoy those settings this sounds super fun. Patzer. I'd say as you brought this up, you give it a go (what he said) and report back how it went. Strider's nasty Headhunter and Reckoning crew doesn't include Mortimer. Are you calling the King non-competitve? Well, that takes effort... I don't like effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Well, that takes effort... I don't like effort. I'm sure your girlfriend thinks you're a real prize. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 If I wasn't playing Stake a Claim tomorrow when I think I'm going to need guys I'd totally be tempted to drop Mortimer and load Killjoy up for full nasty carnage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Strider's nasty Headhunter and Reckoning crew doesn't include Mortimer. Are you calling the King non-competitve? No one would even dare. I have a deep respect for his level of filthyness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Avatar seamus at last beta update could summon living non-totem showgirls as undead. Might not be a bad idea to paint a set of dead performers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaroreg Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Hey Z I am curious about the idea of a poison based Nicodem list, what is it that you usually bring/summon. As a fairly new Nicodem lover/player I am finding that he is far more versatile then I ever thought when I started the game. I thought for sure he just summoned and off things went. THen I started realizing how much he could give his crew. I am also coming around on the idea that he does not always need to summon. One of the things that made me re-think it was coming across a regular mei-Fang player who eats corpse tokens for breakfast so It really put me in a situation where I had to begin learning to play him to other strengths that I did not know were there. I love playing against him not because I win but because it makes me think about how I am going to be approaching playing him. I always find that when my back is to the wall I find a new trick so next time I can start putting my friends backs to the wall. So what I am saying is getting out of your comfort zone during regular friendly play can really help you out when you suddenly find a master who does not want to let you do your thing. hope I didn't ramble too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/107528-mcmourning-without-transfusion/page-3#entry821000 I have some ramblings about poison Nicodem there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalifauxMartin Posted May 12, 2015 Report Share Posted May 12, 2015 What is Striders crew for those strats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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