Misaki's Real Place In the Game

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Hey All,

 

So I've been trying real hard to make Misaki work. And I think she does, pretty well. Super fun to play for sure. But, where does she fit into a competitive list? Daw, Schill, and Levi have already proven to be very good. Then where do I put Misaki as an Outcast into my tournament pool? Well, after much laboring with her I think I found it.

 

Anti-Guild.

 

If you're talking about killing power, well just hire Levi.

If you need board control, then take Daw.

If you need anti-resser/neverborn and hard to remove models, you go with Schill.

 

But, what if you're playing against Guild? Guild pose a potential threat against Levi because they have the best options for sniping waifs. 

Now, Daw and Schill have no reason to fear Guild. But, if I'm looking to maximize my strengths versus their weaknesses, then I'd have to say go with Misaki and friends. Mostly because:

 

1) She's bullet proof and very agile so she can get into combat sooner.

2) Torkage can spam LoS blocking markers and when alone give themselves a negative to being shot at.

 

It's not a lot, but I think it's enough. I can't think of an other Outcast crew that natively has so much anti-range. You can fill in the spots with convicts with more bullet proof. You can also take trappers and unbury the torkage real close to those hard to get ranged models.

 

Arguments for or against? I dont see what else her crew brings to the table that other crews in her faction can already do. So if this is wrong lol then man poor girl got's nothing to call her own.

[SpiralngCadavr]

IDK, I've found that my best answer to Guild is also bringing a lot of guns, since Guild doesn't so outclass outcasts that a gunfight turning into a brawl will hurt us, esp. with I Pay Better as a real boon for ranged lists.

 

Also, the worst Guild ranged offenders ignore LOS, which clouds don't actually protect against (and the cover bit isn't nearly as relevant). And on the subject of clouds, all outcasts have access to the Hodgepodge Effigy and Tara and Leveticus have access to Crooligans. Not to say that Torakage aren't stronger, but if that's the mechanic you're focusing on, there are cheaper ways of getting it.

 

I agree that she's good at closing from playing against her, and that it's a strong anti-range tactic, but IDK about anti-guild being a defining role.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

True about the clouds. But, I think the point is that Misaki's basic troops are fairly resilient to being shot at. Yes, the austringers are still trouble. But, by having los blocking abilities and negative to sh attack native on the model + cover. You're looking, I think, a presence of anti-shooting that in a tournament setting the only real reason to declare Misaki as a master over the other choices in the outcasts would be against Guild. Guild do tend to rely on range more than anyone else.
If we can't say that her's is the better options for protecting one's self against range/guild then I don't think there's a real place for her outside non-competitive games. Which would be a shame because I think she really fun.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Well, I've been intending on learning her, so might be able to get back to you in a while, but yeah, torakage are a real pain to remove with guns.

 

However, if I'm going up against Guild, I'd say that Sonnia is one of the most common and threatening masters I see, and anti-SH doesn't do anything special against her (a FK-heavy list has a lot of advantages against her while not being slouches elsewhere... not that you can't take them with Misaki, just that IDK if torakage are an answer).

 

Personally, the list I've seen most come up is the anti-charging list, with Disguised and Yamaziko's braced stance. The whole package seems like it's focused around allowing you to control the body of the engagement (tank up until you're ready to launch misaki at the enemy and fight on your terms. In TT, I feel like Mei handles that sort of thing better than Misaki, but Outcasts don't have Mei.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Hm.. IDK if my opponent was Sonnia I was try and use Misakis superior speed to lock that lady down in combat asap. Plus, she's a card/stone heavy lady. So assassinate is a pretty nice thing to have.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, I think Misaki herself is good at speeding up the board, just saying that the troops she brings don't necessarily help all that much.

[The Zinc Lich]

Honestly, I'd be more tempted to bring Misaki against Arcanists than Guild. I find that Guild crews that rely on shooting *will* bring tools to shore up their weakness to cover and LoS blocking, but Arcanists don't really have that luxury. Rasputina and Ramos, especially, are easy to frustrate with smoke bombs; Rasputina can't Ice Mirror through models she can't see, nor can Ramos summon spiders if his vision is blocked. All of his crazy buff auras disappear, as well. Marcus doesn't particularly care about LoS blocking, but his minions are among the most killable in the faction and, assuming you bring her defensive schtick, Misaki is pretty much impossible to get into melee if she doesn't want to be there. She's also so fast that Collette might have trouble staying away from her.

 

Then again, there is the fact that Misaki has a tendency to bounce off of stuff with armor, and I have yet to see an Arcanist crew that doesn't bring at least a little bit...

 

More than picking Misaki to counter certain factions, I think she's more valuable as a resource on certain terrain setups. I think about taking her on boards that have a lot of blocking terrain and short, small alleys. Anywhere you can block off LoS to large portions of the board with a single smoke bomb is a great boon for her, and her ability to Next Target around corners makes Deadly Dance and Disguise that much more frustrating for opponents to deal with. Outcast Misaki can take Scout the Field, which makes blocking terrain a *fantastic* weapon to use against the enemy because you can just ignore it, and she has access to the best healing in the game, making her nigh-impossible to kill if she can reliably break LoS to heal up between engagements.

 

Those same boards are great for Leveticus, but let's pretend he isn't around for this conversation.

 

TT Misaki definitely beats Outcast Misaki for pure killy-ness, but Outcasts have some of the best defensive stuff in the game. Surely we can get some mileage out of it.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Huh, hadn't thought about it from a terrain perspective, I can see that. Also, good call on removing buffs through LOS blocking- it's something I don't see that often.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I think the armor of the arcanists is problem. But, if you go outcasts you can always take ronin. That'll help. Or bishop.

But, then you dont need Misaki. Hm....tough tough. But, I like her as an outcast because of I pay better. Which really helps torikage.

[BigHammer]

Sonnia really messes up Misaki's day. Her range and crew do well to keep Misaki at bay for the one turn the witch hunter needs to nuke the mistress off the table; admittedly, if Misaki does reach Sonnia, she'll tear her to shreds in short order, but actually reaching her at all is a tall order.

 

However, against Perdita and Lady J, Misaki can really unleash and be a force to reckon with; she can simply charge past the family members Perdita might rely on to tie her in melee to be shot at with impunity, and she's one of the few masters capable of going toe-to-toe with Lady J in melee (and can use her Disguise and Deadly Dance to be a huge pain in the butt for J to even swing at).

 

Out of interest, though, why do you find I Pay Better to be of use to torakage? If you move them well enough, they basically have focus (1) built in to their melee attacks already, and Misaki likes to have as strong and full a hand as she can have, generally.

[katadder]

when playing outcasts misaki and crew is my go to if up against lots of horror duels or other WP shenanigans (so normally NVB).

you have fairly decent stats to start with, but can then bring oiran without paying a tax and yamaziko as well. has served me well generally having a crew of WP7 (or even 8) models.

example 50SS crew that I have used to success:

 

Misaki

-survivalist

Johan

2x Oiran

Rusty Alyce

-desolate soul

Torakage

Vanessa

Yamaziko

[papa smurf]

Pretty sure people like outcast Misaki for the 5 ap she can get to nuke model x off the table. Bisento oathkeeper and survivalist. Shang or a librarian will generally keep her above hard to kill so even after they have burned generous ap trying to kill her you can hopefully keep her around to make another model feel her wrath.

Armor does make her sad. But hey all masters have their faults. But think about it if she ignored armor she might be a better killer than Levi. And that can't happen. So she fits in quite nicely on murder things schemes and strategies. But generally only if your tired of levy or know your guild opponent is bring the hate levy list.

Also Her crew can generally be what ever you want for the schemes and strategies. But some healing is generally nice.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I think I pay better is good for the torikage because it makes them even better and makes there ranged attacks little better. And mostly because it helps get smokebombs and bury off.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, I Pay better is just a fantastic upgrade- makes anything decently accurate with a good damage track hugely better.

[Drool_bucket]

Misaki in Headhunter with a scheme pool to accomidate.

 

Make them Suffer, Murder Protege or far ranging scheme ones like Power Ritual (corner/flank) or Plant Evidence and the such.

 

Misaki is our surgical Melee master...  The Viks the brawlers.

[The Zinc Lich]

Misaki in Headhunter with a scheme pool to accomidate.

 

Make them Suffer, Murder Protege or far ranging scheme ones like Power Ritual (corner/flank) or Plant Evidence and the such.

 

Misaki is our surgical Melee master...  The Viks the brawlers.

 

Do you mind sharing why you think this is? In my experience, the Viktorias are the the opposite of brawlers; you don't ever want them to end their activation in melee with anything. Misaki on the other hand, has better stats across the board, a pile of (albeit situational) survival options, and all the tools necessary to extract herself from melee if things get messy. I mean, when I think masters I would describe as brawlers, I think about Lady Justice, McMourning, or Ironsides; masters that can take hits while dishing out damage. They trade the ability to get to whatever target they want (yes, I know McMourning has Belles, let's put that aside for a moment) for resilience that makes the opponent think twice about attacking them.

 

In my view, they are both assassin-type masters. They both have high melee damage output, yes, but more importantly, they both have tools to engage in melee on their own terms. Because they can dictate when melee happens (via Misaki's Diving Charge and Next Target, and the Vik's Sisters in Spirit), they can stay out of range of models they don't want to engage while the models they do have trouble hiding from them. Misaki trades pure killing power for better tools to survive reprisal when she does come in, but their game plan is pretty much the same.

 

The fact that they have very similar table presence is sort of the reason why we're only really talking about Misaki now, on the road to book three. People on the boards have always talked about how they have trouble fitting her into their lineup when the Viks do her job more dramatically, with a flavor that a lot of people feel is more "true" to the Outcast faction. For better or worse, Misaki is Ten Thunders first, Outcast distant second.

[Kadeton]

I think there will always be Masters who don't see widespread support - with 7 per Faction, most people simply aren't going to use them all in a tournament, so they'll stick to the ones they know best. Since most people don't start in Outcasts with Misaki, she'll never be as popular as more familiar options.

I don't really see a need for a "surgical melee" Master, personally - that's a pretty niche role. Why limit yourself? Outcasts already have a Master who can kill one thing incredibly reliably every turn from range (with a host of other benefits), and a Master who can indiscriminately slaughter everything in melee. Both of those kill things more reliably than Misaki if killing things is what you want to do.

I quite like the idea of Misaki being anti-Guild, though I'm not sure she's a particular standout in that regard - Von Schill can easily hold his own in a Guild shoot-out while also being incredibly resistant to Sonnia's flaming BS, and Hamelin or Jack's control style causes major Guild headaches.

There's a lot of overlap in the capabilities of the Outcast Masters - they're quite flexible for the most part, with a good mix of mobility, killing power and resilience (with notable exceptions in each area). Misaki definitely brings a good mix of mobility, killing power and resilience, but she's perhaps too much of a generalist - less killing power than Viktoria or Leveticus, less mobility than Jack or Tara, less resilience than Hamelin or Von Schill.

Misaki also doesn't bring anything particularly "unfair" to the fight, other than perhaps her capacity for catch-touch-this evasiveness (which is more annoying than unfair), or her instant-death trigger (which comes at quite a cost). There's nothing in her kit that makes the other player go "Hang on, she can do what now?" in the way that the other Masters do. Don't get me wrong - everything she can do, she does really well - but there's no "Wow" factor.

Given that specialists tend to perform better than generalists - if your Master has to play a role other than the focused one you intended for them, it's probably because your game plan has fallen apart and you're heading for a loss - and that Misaki is often the last Outcast people think of, I don't think we'll ever see her lauded as a must-take. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. She's a strong and perfectly competent Master for those who want to take her, and that's enough.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I think Misaki and friends are more powerful when the perfect schemes and strats are on the board. Like, Misaki with two trappers and two torikage with plant evidence or break through are really good because turn 2 you can be done with both and then spend the game running interference. Early schemes are great for messing with your opponent. Or, if you have all interact based schemes. Torikage can walk away and remove distract or cursed object. Or if there is only 1 kill objective. Like murder prot then Misaki is good because she is all you need to focus on that while you do objectives else where. I think in a few of these examples she might shine better than the other outcast masters.

 

Levi's crew is not very mobile, they just have a lot of staying power. Except Levi who is pretty agile if you have the right set up. Levi is so universal strong though because of his offense and powerful summoning. But, he suffers in collect the bounty because his summons become a liability and most of all he's weak to guild. Two austringers are all you need to really counter levi.

 

Schill I find is better suited for anti resser and neverborn. The armor, the immunity to pulses, the take your shirt off attack against low wp ressers, hard to kill, ignore hard to wound, and the high will power are really power against these two factions. But, his crew suffers if they have to spread out more than 6" from schill on the trunk. So i find that he's only really good in extraction or guard the stash.
 

Daw is a board control fiend. So he's good at interference and if the objectives are not about killing, but more like enemy interactions then all his paralyze actions shine. Plus he's good if the schemes have assassinate because he's so hard to remove.

 

Viks are just too much about luck. Because they realy only get a single GO turn and if they dont make good on it they usually die right after.

Misaki is similar to Viks I think but her crew has at least a specific match up that they are better against. And with the smoke bombs, bullet proof, and one in the crowd, they have better def against shooting.

[Kadeton]

I agree with most of what you've said there - each Master has some leanings in particular directions, and if you've got them all in your case and you're equally familiar with each of them, you're encouraged in those directions. I find Von Schill to be a bit weak against Ressers, though - on paper, all his abilities seem to favour that matchup, but in practice I just haven't seen it work the way you'd expect.

I will pull you up on this, though:

Levi's crew is not very mobile, they just have a lot of staying power. Except Levi who is pretty agile if you have the right set up. Levi is so universal strong though because of his offense and powerful summoning. But, he suffers in collect the bounty because his summons become a liability and most of all he's weak to guild. Two austringers are all you need to really counter levi.

Levy's crew is as mobile as he wants it to be. Those things other Masters hire to increase their mobility? Levy can hire most of them. He's also natively got access to stuff like Ashes & Dust (with Scramble!) - I've run Levy crews that were all up in my opponent's deployment zone on turn 2.

Also, I'll believe that two Austringers is all you need when a Guild player beats me with them - I've killed a lot of Austringers belonging to people who thought they'd be coasting to an easy win over Levy.

This isn't a Levy discussion thread, so I'll leave it at that.

I totally agree that the Viks are too luck-based, but I do think they have a specific match-up they're better against than most Outcast Masters: Ressers. They're the only ones who can legitimately threaten the lives of most of the Resser Masters, and they blend through summons much faster than even Nico can replenish them. I would always take the Viks over Von Schill against Ressers, unless it was a very particular set of schemes.

[The Zinc Lich]

Levy's crew is as mobile as he wants it to be. Those things other Masters hire to increase their mobility? Levy can hire most of them. He's also natively got access to stuff like Ashes & Dust (with Scramble!) - I've run Levy crews that were all up in my opponent's deployment zone on turn 2.

 

 

Agreed. The real reason everyone loves Leveticus is not because he kills what he wants and is impossible to kill himself (though that is part of it, to be sure), but because he has such an enormous hiring pool to choose from. No matter what kind of schemes or strategies are on the table, no matter what faction he's facing, no matter what kind of playstyle a player is looking for, Leveticus can take the perfect crew for it.

 

Nobody who has access to Crooligans (especially since he can teleport to them) can be accused of having a slow crew.

 

I quite like the idea of Misaki being anti-Guild, though I'm not sure she's a particular standout in that regard - Von Schill can easily hold his own in a Guild shoot-out while also being incredibly resistant to Sonnia's flaming BS, and Hamelin or Jack's control style causes major Guild headaches.

There's a lot of overlap in the capabilities of the Outcast Masters - they're quite flexible for the most part, with a good mix of mobility, killing power and resilience (with notable exceptions in each area). Misaki definitely brings a good mix of mobility, killing power and resilience, but she's perhaps too much of a generalist - less killing power than Viktoria or Leveticus, less mobility than Jack or Tara, less resilience than Hamelin or Von Schill.

 

 

I agree that VonSchill is definitely the right choice for the Guild matchup. He easily cuts Sonnia's effectiveness by about 2/3 by completely removing her ability to spread burning with blasts and providing a reliable answer to stacking burning, while not really being vulnerable to anything the other masters bring. His crew fights perfectly happily from behind cover, forcing Perdita to choose between Bullet Bending and True Mark, they can keep Lady Justice comfortably at range, they bring enough anti-armor stuff to mess with Hoffman... People need to get over VonSchill's aura. It is good, yes, but it isn't like the crew can't function outside of it. I bring Freikorps in plenty of crews where they don't have access to HtK and +1 Wp, and they seem to do just fine.

 

I'm not sure that I agree with your point about Misaki being too much of a generalist. Because she has above-average resilience and the ability to easily use terrain to block LoS for retaliation, she has a different class of models that she specializes in killing, as opposed to the Viks. Because of Mark of She'Zuul and Sisters in Fury, the Viktorias specialize in removing the hardest part of the opponent's list while Whirlwinding away anything that gets caught in the crossfire. Misaki, on the other hand, is best nibbling the edges of the opponent's crew, killing anything that moves away from the main body while still being fast enough to be relevant afterwards. There are a lot of Enforcers and cheap Henchmen that a Viktoria would be overkill for that Misaki is perfect for dispatching, after which she can place herself in such a way that she can survive retaliation where a Vik could not. Its not as corner case as a lot of people think.

 

I've been trying to think of a good metaphor for the differences between the two of them; I agree that Misaki is a scalpel, but the Viktorias feel more like a rocket launcher to me. Of course the rocket launcher is more dramatic, and more out-and-out powerful, but you certainly have to make your one shot count a little better than with a scalpel.

[Kadeton]

I'm not sure that I agree with your point about Misaki being too much of a generalist. Because she has above-average resilience and the ability to easily use terrain to block LoS for retaliation, she has a different class of models that she specializes in killing, as opposed to the Viks. Because of Mark of She'Zuul and Sisters in Fury, the Viktorias specialize in removing the hardest part of the opponent's list while Whirlwinding away anything that gets caught in the crossfire. Misaki, on the other hand, is best nibbling the edges of the opponent's crew, killing anything that moves away from the main body while still being fast enough to be relevant afterwards. There are a lot of Enforcers and cheap Henchmen that a Viktoria would be overkill for that Misaki is perfect for dispatching, after which she can place herself in such a way that she can survive retaliation where a Vik could not. Its not as corner case as a lot of people think.

That's an interesting take - I hadn't really thought about that as a role for a Master because Outcasts already have some fantastic Enforcers that do the job very well. Bishop and Ashes & Dust spring to mind - with 3 AP and the option of Scramble, they're both more than fast enough to chase down scheme runners at the fringes of the fight and remain relevant in the endgame, and they hit hard enough to get the job done. My immediate thought was "If your Master isn't dealing with the enemy's hard models, who is?"

I think you're right, though, and the answer to my question can actually be "Nobody needs to." Misaki, more so than the others, can run a very sneaky crew that works towards schemes while avoiding direct confrontation. If you approach the scenario with a focus on placing schemes as efficiently as possible and not getting stuck into melee then Torakage, Oiran and Ronin will all be very useful and Misaki can run interference on the enemy scheme runners.

I'll have to try that out next time the scenario favours it, I think - I have my suspicions that the crew will struggle with the need to throw models to the enemy meatgrinders to distract them, and I'm not sure that it has the survivability to go the distance, but it should get scheme markers into enemy territory more easily than just about any other Outcast crew (perhaps with the exception of Jack).

[Carcosa]

You could try running on minimum soulstones for misaki and blow them early to kick in her soulstone-less benefits in conjunction with a few Ronin. Use the ronin to run your meatgrinders (they are hardly a waste of stones) and let misaki do her hunt and kill tricks with no stones, then sac the ronin for the 2 stones as needed.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

No no no no! lol Never take min stones on a master! I see people do this alot and I dont get it. If I see a master across the board with only 2 ss. Then I'm coming for them. Two stones means you're probably never stoning for cards (which is the best thing to do with them most of the time). You're also not going to get off any triggers you don't luck out getting. Sure Misaki is one master who gains a bonus from having no stones. But, it's not worth it. You'd have to get really lucky and at the end of the day, its only 3 or maybe 4 attacks. You'd have to trigger them all to actually kill something with her trigger because your opponent is going to see you coming with this trick if he's any good. He's going to hold onto his cards and stones to weather misaki's attacks. Then, if you miss even one attack. He's going to send in his cb 7 or high damage attack model, throw down the 1 or 2 good cards he kept. And beat her lady to death because she cannot stone away any damage. Sure you could wait till late turn with her. But, then you have to wade through all his activaitons. I truely think you're better off taking 6 stones at least. Use them for stones and protecting your henchman and master. Then around turn 4 (maybe 3 if your opponent is overly agressive with his cards and stones) then you dump your cache and bury misaki in. Because then, when they spend one or two turns chewing through her above average defense, they'll have lost all that precious late game AP taking her out. Sure she'll probably die, but if my opponent is wasting AP on killing her when there's no points in doing it instead of taking care of schemes and strats, then its totally worth it for me.

[katadder]

I often take min stones on misaki and it has been ok. with disguise and survivalist she is quite good at weathering attacks after nuking the enemies hand of cards (or their stones).

as long as you have a decent crow in your hand charge in with a soulstone (should be your last one at this point) for crows is one trigger so causing them to discard 2 cards or stones, then hit them again with your high crow to cheat in for another trigger causing them to discard yet more cards. she should still have one action left as well which depending on opponents melee range you could do deadly dance.

this might leave misaki in a bit of trouble but should ease your turn even if she has failed to kill her target.

 

the threat of misaki or the above actions can cause opponents to either hold onto their hand or discard their hand protecting things allowing the rest of misakis crew to actually carry out the strats and schemes a bit easier.

[BigHammer]

99% of the time I take min SS on Misaki, but she's the only master that I feel warrants this being okay. If she takes Shang, she's essentially stoning for cards every other turn that he's still alive (Rush of Magic), and when she runs out she's getting the equivalent of a stone's worth of suits on every Bisento attack flip she makes. Along with free Defensive (+1), an upgrade and two minions that can give her more stones (Cutpurse, Hodgepodge Effigy and Ronin), her starting two basically become additional wounds for her (or a henchman), though I do enjoy using her last stone to trigger a free assassinate by using it for a crow (and getting the second free from RV).

 

I've even considered trying Cutpurse lately, as I've realised that the opposing Master doesn't actually need to have stones left for her to gain one herself; the effects (enemy master loses one, Misaki gains one) are separate from each other, and when she's out of stones and you're not top-decking or cheating a crow for assassinate, the trigger for a free Cutpurse is built-in. Sure you could just spend that stone to add to the cache to begin with, but Misaki actually benefits from running out of stones and gaining more rather than just having more to begin with.