Couple of movement interaction doubts

[r4st4f4n]

I’ve got some pretty specific doubts about some interactions with movement. I read some opinions already on AWP group, but for the first time there, the tone wasn’t very civil at all, and didn’t get to a decent answer, so I'll mercifully appeal to the Section Rules... Thanks

One is about the stated wording of Lure: “Move target model its Wk. The target must end the move as close to this model as possible.”
This action can no doubt do the best to put the target in trouble, n.1 because luring’s model controller controls the move, n.2 because the model will cross fearlessly terrain that will slow and hurt him. But, does ending the move consciously dead, Out of Play, respect the “target must end the move as close to this model as possible” clause? If a model is lured down a Ht5 building, we know that he moves over the edge, falls, and if still alive, resumes and ends its movement: so the move ends after falling damage is applied.

1) We know in advance if the fall will kill the model or not, by premeasuring, so, can a move that requires the model to end as close as possible, make it voluntarily and knowingly end Out of Play, so, further than any starting position on the Board?

I’m pretty sure the model will cross any kind of Hazardous terrain, because the damage received comes from a flipping chart, and Black Joker can be flipped, so he has a chance to survive and “end the move as close to this model as possible” when that route is chosen over the others, but with falling you know in advance where the move will end, whether on the board, or outside...
 

Some other related/unrelated questions:

2) Are you allowed to climb a climbable surface in two times? If so, the model stays in base contact with the surface, midair?

3) To fall, you must end the movement in a place where you don’t have terrain under your feet. A push can for sure push you over the edge. Is it allowed to volountarily move into a place of nothing(the void), or does the move fail?

The other one: Markers like Ice Pillars, Flame Walls, have terrain traits, but they aren’t stated as “Terrain”, as the rules require to consider them Terrain: "Markers: Markers do not affect movement unless their description states otherwise. Some Markers may gain terrain traits, or other rules that alter movement.".

4) Therefore Flying and Incorporeal cannot ignore and walk over them (they can only ignore Terrain and Models while moving), and they are Impassable to any kind of move(not, e.g. Place) in the game, right?

[Dirial]

I never thought about a lot of the issues you state there. To the main question: I think you're overthinking here. In my eyes, nothing prevents you from moving the model to any point it can reach. If the model gets killed while moving there, that's not forbidden.

[Rob Lo]

Interesting, puzzling questions (usually the kind of thing I see pop up a couple days after the FAQ release, with no real chance of being officially answered any time soon).

 

1. I get the idea, dead is certainly not as close as the model can get. But in the context of the game, some very basic things get assumed, and I think this would be lumped in there. We're not playing United Nations the Board Game, after all. It's assumed the luring model is fine with and probably seeking the death of the other model. If not the intention, the already long description would include "without dying" or "without taking enough damage to be killed".

 

2 and 3. Again, no official answer or anything in the rules that speaks to these, I believe? Many people go with "if the rules don't say you can, you can't" to which I ask if they've ever cast a spell through a window, which are also not discussed as a thing that exists. Personal preference, discuss with your opponent.

 

4. That's one of those things that it feels like snippets of rules that may pertain are in a few different sections or extrapolated from what is or isn't said on other models cards, and mostly I just hope the question doesn't come up during a game so that we have to stop and think about it. Outside of a game, I'll be interested if anyone has a thought on it.

[paradoxstorm]

 

2 and 3. Again, no official answer or anything in the rules that speaks to these, I believe? Many people go with "if the rules don't say you can, you can't" to which I ask if they've ever cast a spell through a window, which are also not discussed as a thing that exists. Personal preference, discuss with your opponent.

 

 

I would suggest the correct interpretation is "if the rules don't forbid it, it is allowed."   Sometimes "forbidden" is implied by what is allowed "model may move up to its walk" clearly forbids movement beyond the walk distance.  

 

For #1 I cannot imagine a scenario where a model could move out of play/off the board so I don't think you need to worry about it.

 

The rest of this is me thinking out loud to see how well I am doing:

 

#2  For practical reasons I can see problems with climbable walls and such if you do not have enough movement to complete the climb in one turn--placing your model part way up a wall with no way to keep it there would make the game state unclear.  I know that we play that your model has to have enough movement to reach a point where the model can be placed -- so a hill with ledges/flat areas on the climbable side could be climbed over multiple turns if you have enough movement to reach a flat area.  

 

That said, if you have defined a wall as climbable I can't see a rule based reason that you couldn't complete the climb over multiple turns as long as you had some means of making the game state clear.  Perhaps a stack of counters to hold the model part way up the wall.  

 

#3  I would certainly think that if I wanted to walk my ice gamin off a tall building, having him drop into a crowd of opposing models so he can die and explode causing damage to all below I can do so, unless the wall is climbable.  Then I think that climbing would be part of the walk action.  

 

#4 if a marker has terrain traits it seems that it should be treated as terrain for purposes of model movement.  If a model can fly over a 5 inch wall why couldn't it fly over a 5 inch marker?  

 

Now I'll watch the replies to see if I passed the quiz

[Kadeton]

If my opponent argued that Flying and Incorporeal creatures couldn't pass over Ice Pillars because they aren't terrain, I'd point out that the Impassible trait reads "Models cannot enter Impassable areas of terrain". Since the markers aren't terrain, the area they occupy is not an impassible area of terrain, and every model can move through them freely.

[Nagash1959]

1. The use of Lure forces a model to move along a specific path. If the model takes damage during that movement that's fine. If the model is killed by said damage then the effect ends anyway, no violation of the requirement. This is the same as Killjoy being forced to charge over hazardous terrain and dying. He *must* charge a legal target if there is one. Charging *must* end with the target inside your :close range. But he died, so Blood Price stops to matter as it doesn't mention "When this model dies".

2. I'm guessing you mean something like "Does a model have to finish climbing with only a single Walk action" to which I say no, they do not. The Climbable trait allows vertical movement in that spot, simple as that. There is nothing there that states a model must finish it's movement off the climbable spot. Of course, the physical model won't stay there unless you blu-tac it to your terrain.

3. Yes, you can just walk right off the elevation and fall if you want to. Nothing stops you from moving that way. The entry just states "Models moving off elevation" but makes no mention that you must be pushed off.

[Nagash1959]

@Paradoxstorm, you should never look at a wargame like that. The rules are there to tell you what you can do, not what you can't. The only time they should tell you what you can't do is in relation to other rules already made. Why can't I have Nicodem pull out his pistol and shoot Lady J? Because his stat card doesn't give him a pistol. Why can Killjoy swing his chain around a railing and come in like a wrecking ball? Because that isn't an ability on his card. You can apply the "It doesn't say I can't" logic to an RPG, because the GM decides what the final answer is, but a game that is designed to be playable between two strangers must be comprised of solid absolutes that give you what you can do. You *can* move up to your walk. That's what you're allowed to do. It's phrased like that because it's telling you, the player, what you are allowed to do with the movement.

 

[jonahmaul]

I've replied in the AWP thread (with no hostility I believe - Michael 'Jonah' Rees).  My thoughts would be:

 

1 - yes you can be Lured off walls/cliffs etc. and will take falling damage.  The wording says must end the move as close as possible.  If you end that walk as a corpse you've still ended as close as possible based on the interpretation of the rules; you just happen to be a corpse now.  Nagash's point about Killjoy is a very good comparison.

 

2 - as others have said there is nothing in the rules that prohibits this but I think it is something that should be agreed with your opponent beforehand

 

3 - this isn't framed very well as a question.  You fall/can be pushed off terrain and there is nothing stating you have to end up without terrain underneath you.  You could for example fall from one level of a building onto another one and still be in/on terrain or the building itself could be in hazardous terrain and you could fall/be pushed off.  What do you define as a place of nothing?  You couldn't be walked off  the board for example.

 

4 - if the markers get terrain traits then I think they would be treated as the terrain they are supposed to represent (i.e. hard cover, blocking, dense etc.).  Markers being ignored is for things like scheme/scrap/corpse markers for ease of the rules whereas ice pillars/forest specifically mimic the terrain whose traits they gain.

[The Godlyness]

If my opponent argued that Flying and Incorporeal creatures couldn't pass over Ice Pillars because they aren't terrain, I'd point out that the Impassible trait reads "Models cannot enter Impassable areas of terrain". Since the markers aren't terrain, the area they occupy is not an impassible area of terrain, and every model can move through them freely.

...must say I disagree. Models have the blocking and impassable trait. But as you just said they are not terrain So why cant I walk though my own models freely? (Sans flight incorporeal)

Lilith's trees says it's terrain. Kaeris pyre marker say they are terrain. Ice/flame pillars do not. flight and incorporeal does not say ignore the impassable trait of terrain. Then I would agree they could walk through them. But since ice/flame pillars are not terrain and incorporeal/flight just give you permission to move through models and terrain nothing else. You Can Not walk through them.

Also ice/flame pillars do not grant any sort or cover bonus since they do not have the trait soft/hard cover in the description of the action that makes them.

[wopr1986]

If my opponent argued that Flying and Incorporeal creatures couldn't pass over Ice Pillars because they aren't terrain, I'd point out that the Impassible trait reads "Models cannot enter Impassable areas of terrain". Since the markers aren't terrain, the area they occupy is not an impassible area of terrain, and every model can move through them freely.

 I agree with godlyness another example, as models have 'blocking/impassable' terrain trait's then you could just stand two waldegeist next to each other or any other model to gain a 4" melee range... By your veiw that works and I'll go out on a limb and say that 99% of players would disagree with that.

I see it as one of two things: When the cards where written they forgot to add the "treat this marker as terrain" sentence or they are not meant to be treated as terrain, so until a FAQ states otherwise they are not terrain by the rules written in the ability.

[Kadeton]

...must say I disagree. Models have the blocking and impassable trait. But as you just said they are not terrain So why cant I walk though my own models freely? (Sans flight incorporeal)

 

If you want to play the game RAW - as you are suggesting - then you open yourself up to further RAW interpretations. If that includes being able to walk through your own models, so be it - play the game how you want, but be consistent. My point is that as soon as you start relying on technicalities (like "markers with terrain traits aren't treated as terrain") then the game will almost immediately fall apart, because the rules just aren't written that way.

 

You can't say "But the Impassible trait can't work that way, because that means models can walk through each other!" - if you want to play the rules as written, well, that's the rule. Models and Ice Pillar markers aren't areas of terrain, so the Impassible trait doesn't apply to them. Or maybe you'd rather play the game in a way that makes sense?

 

I will continue to treat Ice Pillars as terrain in my games, since that's what makes intuitive sense to me.

 

(All that would be required to clear this whole situation up is to change the phrase "Markers are not terrain" to "A marker is not considered terrain, unless it has one or more terrain traits.") 

[rgarbonzo]

Page 43 in the Large Rulebook under Movement Special Rules "Markers: Markers do not affect movement unless their description states otherwise. Some Markers may gain terrain traits, or other rules that alter movement" it then follows that up later with "Terrain: Some terrain objects can also affect movement." So Markers are Markers (unless specified otherwise) and Terrain is Terrain.  Consider McTavish's Hunting Screen, it is a 30mm Hunting Screen Marker that grants Soft Cover in a 3"  , it is a Marker and not Terrain, though it has Terrain Traits. Now Kaeris can place Pyre Markers that are "Ht 5, blocking, hazardous terrain". Two different Markers one is terrain (Pyre) and one is not (Hunting Screen). Same with Ice Pillars/Flame Wall, markers not terrain.

 

[The Godlyness]

If you want to play the game RAW - as you are suggesting - then you open yourself up to further RAW interpretations. If that includes being able to walk through your own models, so be it - play the game how you want, but be consistent. My point is that as soon as you start relying on technicalities (like "markers with terrain traits aren't treated as terrain") then the game will almost immediately fall apart, because the rules just aren't written that way.

 

I Always try being raw. and raw is that models have blocking and impassible traits. models can not move through things that are impassable unless they have an abilty or action that lets them. Incorporeal and Flight both say they ignore models and terrain. if it just said they ignore terrain then they would not be able to walk through models since nothing is allowing them to do so.

 

Neither incorporeal or Flight says this model ignores all Markers, Models, and terrain during any push(incorporeal) or move.

 

Gaining Terrain Traits Does not Make things terrain. The action saying it is terrain makes it terrain

(0) Illusionary Forest

 Place two 50mm Illusionary Forest Markers within range and touching each other. These Markers are treated as Ht 4 terrain with the dense, severe & soft cover traits.

(1) Flame Wall

Place two 50mm Flame Wall Markers in LoS touching each other within 12” and at least 1” from any modelor Marker. These Flame Wall Markers are Ht 5 and have the blocking and impassable traits.

(1) Ice Pillars

Place two Ice Pillar Markers touching each other within 12" of this model and at least 1” from any model or Marker. These Ice Pillar Markers are 50mm bases with Ht 5 and the blocking and impassible traits

Here is a Wave 2 trigger on silent ones      Spreading Ice: After damaging, place an Ice Pillar Marker in base contact with the target. This Marker is 50mm, Ht 5, blocking, and impassible. Remove this Marker at the end of the Turn.

(0) On the Pyre

Place two 50mm Pyre Markers within range, touching each other, at least 1" from any models or other Markers. These Markers are Ht 5, blocking, hazardous terrain.

 

Each one of these things is worded differently and react differently. I did not write them so i can only do what i am told to do.

 

For instance Ice pillars does not need los to be placed since it does not say it does. Same with pyre markers. Flame walls do.

But We(the player) are Told what the markers do and how they effect the game. For instance only lilith's markers have cover traits. so only her markers grant cover, ice/flame/pyre do not.

 

Side note I dont think Billowing Columns of Flame are really terrain . unless you are on the Elemental plane of Fire. Then yeah It's quite possible.

[Csonti]

...must say I disagree. Models have the blocking and impassable trait. But as you just said they are not terrain So why cant I walk though my own models freely? (Sans flight incorporeal)

 

 

Actually models don't have the blocking or impassable TRAIT. The rulebook refers them in these situations as OBJECTS.

For example moving through another model's base is not forbidden because of all models have the impassable trait. It is forbidden because the rules says so under the Movement section.

 

 

 

Small Rulebook p46

Movement Special Rules

Some objects interact with movement in unique ways.

...

Models: Both friendly and enemy models effect movement in two ways:

• A model cannot move through or over another model’s base.

 

Here is some examples for the blocking stuff:

 

 

Small Rulebook p41

No Line of Sight

A model has No LoS to a target if no LoS line can be drawn between the acting

model and the target model without crossing blocking terrain or the base of another

model (friendly or enemy). If an Attacker has No LoS to a model, then that model

is not a valid target, unless otherwise noted.

p42.

Elevation

The Ht of the acting model, target, and intervening objects can effect whether or

not the acting model has LoS. If the blocking object (terrain or model) between the

Attacker and target has Ht lower than the Attacker or target’s Ht, then the blocking

object is ignored for LoS quality (but not cover).

 

 

So your example is not valid while Kadeton's point is. If you don't treat the markers with impassable trait as a terrain then RAW they can be freely crossed by any model since impassable trait only affects terrain pieces. (Which is obviously a bug in the system but if you want to defend your point with strict RAW argument, you can't ignore this piece either.)

[The Godlyness]

The pushed model cannot pass through impassable objects (such as other models, or walls) or climb. Page 43

Impassable is defined in the book a few times and is terrain trait. And as you have pointed out "blocking" is also defined in the rule book as a terrain trait.

So we have models be specifically mentioned that they are impassable. And specifically mentioned they are blocking.

So a model is impassable and it is blocking.

Not ignoring anything. But thank you for the rules to further back up the....rules.

[Csonti]

It seems you didn't get it. Let's try it again.

 

...must say I disagree. Models have the blocking and impassable trait. But as you just said they are not terrain So why cant I walk though my own models freely? (Sans flight incorporeal)

 

No. RAW models don't have the blocking or impassable TRAIT. They are blocking and impassable OBJECTS which is not the same. They do behave the same way as a similarly named terrain piece in this aspect but this is written down in the respective sections (movement, LoS etc.) and you don't need to ever refer to the terrain part of the rules when you need to decide how to handle the interaction with other models. That is not accidental since models are not terrain. So it is quite logical anyway that they can't have terrain traits (unlike Markers since the rulebook specifically allow those kind of objects to get terrain traits).

Of course I'm happy to accept that I'm wrong in case you can show me where is in the rules that models have the impassable and blocking TRAIT.

And the question still hangs in the air: why should a Marker with impassable trait that is not a terrain itself should RAW stop models from moving through them?

[The Godlyness]

So models are objects. Weird so is terrain according to the rulebook. And models as quoted above are impassable objects. So how do we define impassable well it's clearly defied as a terrain trait. Ipso facto models have the impassable terrain trait. Ditto for blocking.

Still proving my point. Thank you.

[Myyrä]

And the question still hangs in the air: why should a Marker with impassable trait that is not a terrain itself should RAW stop models from moving through them?

I'm sure even you can agree that the actions in question are supposed to do something.

[jonahmaul]

Another rules thread turns into a Godlyness (+ others) sideshow....

[The Godlyness]

Not side tracked original poster asked the question. we are hear answering it. thank you for your esteemed input in helping resolve any of the questions...wait whats this you just posted for no reason to attempt to attack someone who just laughs all the louder? Incredible.

[Csonti]

So models are objects. Weird so is terrain according to the rulebook. And models as quoted above are impassable objects. So how do we define impassable well it's clearly defied as a terrain trait. Ipso facto models have the impassable terrain trait. Ditto for blocking.

Still proving my point. Thank you.

 

Last chance: try to figure out the interaction solely between models while they are moving and trying to see each other WITHOUT ever reading the terrain part of the rules. Can you do it? (Yes) So is the impassable or blocking "aspect" of a model is defined outside of the terrain section? (Yes) So should an impassable object must also have the impassable trait without the rulebook ever stating this? (No) 

 

I'm sure even you can agree that the actions in question are supposed to do something.

 

Yes. That's what I was saying a few posts above. This is clearly a mistake but so could be the wording of the Ice Pillars. It seems very counterintuitive that a flying model can hop from one side of a Ht100 wall to the other without a problem but stoped dead cold before a Ht5 Ice Pillar.

I hope this will be FAQ-d because there is something wrong somewhere here.

[rgarbonzo]

Just to be pedantic, on the same page (43, Large Rule Book), models are specifically called out in how they affect movement, right after Markers and before Terrain. There are 4 things that can affect movement

Markers

Models

Area Effects

Terrain

each is in a class by itself and has their own rules governing how movement is used in each case. Markers are markers, models are models, area effects are area effects and terrain in terrain.

[paradoxstorm]

@Paradoxstorm, you should never look at a wargame like that. The rules are there to tell you what you can do, not what you can't. The only time they should tell you what you can't do is in relation to other rules already made. Why can't I have Nicodem pull out his pistol and shoot Lady J? Because his stat card doesn't give him a pistol. Why can Killjoy swing his chain around a railing and come in like a wrecking ball? Because that isn't an ability on his card. You can apply the "It doesn't say I can't" logic to an RPG, because the GM decides what the final answer is, but a game that is designed to be playable between two strangers must be comprised of solid absolutes that give you what you can do. You *can* move up to your walk. That's what you're allowed to do. It's phrased like that because it's telling you, the player, what you are allowed to do with the movement.

 

 

I think if you reread your post you'll find that we agree in all but framing.  I say that Nicodem is forbidden to use a gun by the rules that state what he is allowed to do.  That is, somewhere there is a rule that only allows attacks printed on the model's stat card--a rule that clearly forbids making use of any attacks not on the stat card.  The same with movement.  The phrase "may move up to your walk" includes "may NOT move more than your walk."   While the wording of the rules is in the affirmative, there is a clear indication of what you may not do.  

 

You are not allowed to play outside the rules regardless of whether the rules are phrased affirmatively (you may) or negatively (you may not).  

 

The reason for my choice of framing has to do with the OP's question about walking his own model off of a tall piece of terrain and inflicting damage.  As I understand it there is no rule specifically permitting this.  It is not stated in the rules that you may walk a model off of terrain inflicting damage. If we seek affirmative permission from the rules, then the model may not be walked off the building.

 

If, however, we look for denial of permission and note that there is no rule forbidding a model's choice to walk off of a building we can determine that the action is allowed.

[r4st4f4n]

So, it looks like this thread brought up some worthy FAQ material, I'm very happy to have everything clarified now Thanks Justin!

http://wyrd-games.net/community/files/file/21-malifaux-2e-faq-errata/


Recapping:

1) Lure can make a model fall and die from the damage, if it is taking the shortest route towards the model taking the Lure Action.
& 3) So can an Obey and similar actions, as the controller of the model can choose to move over an edge and voluntarily fall.

2) A model can climb a climbable terrain in multiple steps, and its position is midair in the meantime if the surface is straight vertical. It's up to you to define that kind of terrain climbable or not.

 

4) Markers with terrain traits are treated as if they were actual terrain, by Flying and Incorporeal as well as by any model.

[jonahmaul]

Patting myself on the back for getting all the questions correct!