brdparker Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Alright, I'm getting there. I feel like Ironsides and using her effectively is the hard-mode version of the game. Could be that she's clashing with my playstyle. Could be she's lacking just a little... something. Not sure what. But I want to crack her... yes, in that way. This isn't meant to be a tactica or advice request, more of a place to jot my thoughts down and see if others have had similar experiences. I played a game with her the other day against a newer player on vassal and won by a couple of points. However, a flip in one direction or the other could have easily changed the game and I feel like if I were playing against a more competitive player, I would have gotten swampfiended, as it were. Strat/Scheme pool wsa: Reconnoiter, LiS, Protect Territory, Murder Protege, Assassinate, Make Them Suffer I took: IS - Arcane Reservoir - Challenge the Crowd - Iron Determination x2 SS Miners Ox Mage - Upgrade that gives +Tome to Ca Angelica Captain - Casting Expert upgrade - Disrupt Magic and M&SU Constructs get Regen +1 Arcane Effigy I feel like there were a few others, but can't remember. He had Nico with a bunch of fleshies, summoned hanged over the course of the game, some punks, Mortimer, Grave Spirit, some dogs, and some other minor models that didn't have a plot. We both took Make them Suffer and Assassinate. Good things I learned from this game: - In retrospect, Protect Territory would have been phenomenal with the miners, as that would have given me an excuse to plop scheme markers and place opponents closer to IS. Might be a tactic to keep in mind for the future. It was my first time using the miners, and I loved them. I think I'll be able to use them to better effect in the future. - Single Ox Mage I think would work, but I used the bugger as a corner holder. In that respect, he did his job, and I expected the opponent to contest it, and I'd push him away with magic. He didn't, so the mage ended up just passing most turns. - The effigy's great! The 2" condition removal is very small, but with all of the movement tricks in the crew (a "free" push per turn of the captain for one), the range is much greater. Once I give IS's attacks burning I have to not forget to actually apply the damage! - Angelica did some good stuff. I forgot the free push at the beginning of the game, so she mostly held the south right quadrant, not far from where she started and pushed people. Later in the game, she was able to force discards with her ranged attack, which was nice. - The Captain was made to take Bleeding Tech Edge. He already has an anti-ranged "ability" (3" Ml range for engagement) and an "anti-Ml" ability (Df resist push), and the negative to Ca hurt the hanged something awful and the (0) action didn't contest with anything else on the card. Beautiful. The regen on the Miners was icing. Bad things I learned from the game (which piles on what I've been thinking about Ironsides) - She seems to have two modes: One turn bomb-mode and support ranged mode. Or, as I call them, "fun, risky mode" and "mode I haven't tried yet because the first mode's too fun." - - The first mode involves getting her into position at the end of a turn, activating first the next turn (potentially taking some hits if you lose init, but ultimately brushing off most non-The Hanged attacks). Then she goes hog-wild and kills things. She downed Nico from three attacks off a single AP, and proceeded to take out a Punk Zombie and lure in someone else. It was an awesome turn. Which brings me to the downside of this mode of strategy: She could die before she gets there. Really, HtK and 14 wounds only goes so far, and the Df trigger only works against Ml attacks. She has healing, but only 1ce/turn (or twice with the Ox Mage upgrade and Counterspell, but you have to use upgrades galore and keep a tight formation for that). It's also ridiculously suit-dependent (she needs tomes for Df duels and crows for extra adrenaline). I found myself drained of hand immediately after her big activation of the game. - - The second mode is still theory for me, and I think the mode that works better for her, but the player needs more patience. Take the Message from the Union upgrade and build your crew to damage itself early to get the + to attack and damage, which leads me to one of the titular topics of this post: How to best damage your models. I've been brainstorming about this for a while. Generally, damaging your own models is silly, but with IS, it can turn them into nasty damage-dealing powerhouses. The trick is to make it as efficient as possible with triggers. The Captain can get docked a point with a low mask Df to push 5" early-game. The gunsmiths have the ram trigger regardless of whether they win or lose to get fast, which is handy. SS Miner damages itself to give you a SS (and with Bleeding Tech Edge, heals to full-1). Johan gives another Relic Hammer to the mix. The other side's something to consider as well, who's doing the damage? You want someone who will tick for one and that you're probably going to take anyway. Angelica - If you like your scheming markers, Angelica can tick a model and push it 3"+1 for each schemish marker within 5"... with no cap. With the union miners, you can get out a bunch of markers (let's say 4, for the same of example), hit (for example) the Captain, tick him for one and push him 7" +5 for his Df trigger. Next get IS in aura range. Then have the Cap go to town. Mouse - If damaged, he gets the plus as well due to his M&SU status, so he can walk and attack with a rope, tick for a damage and pull your guy up in BtB. With the plus, he gets a better chance to get a cheatable flip unless you relent, so you can ignore a RJ damage flip. Electric Creation - Position correctly. Start with EC in the middle of a bunch of models. Activate, pass, and damage each one 1 pt. It's expensive to do, but can hit a lot of them. Downside is that you're probably not going to do too much else with it, as it only has a Wk of 4, and a halflife that will kill it before it gets to the enemy. Just keep it away from your own models after it does its thing. Raptor(s) - I will extol the virtues of these guys until M3E comes out. Unless Reckoning is in play, I always consider at least one in an Arcanist list. They have a nice low damage track for attacking your models, a (2) bury and unbury anywhere action for mucking gunlines, and two very useful triggers. The first is handy if you're playing with Myranda as it turns the model into a beast. The second is the more well-rounded ability: Rake the Eyes: Look at the top three cards of the deck and put the cards back on top of the deck or discard pile in any order. Start with a raptor in Ml range of two models you want to damage. Rake the eyes on one, and set up the trigger you want on the second one. Should be an easy fast for the gunsmiths. In future turns, take to the sky and engage the enemy where you wish or keep attacking the gunsmiths. Willie - The problem with Ox Mages (yes, it's on topic) is their damage reduction ability, Arcane Shield. Before they activate, reduce all damage they suffer by 1... no minimum. Handy, but if you want to poke your own guys efficiently, it requires some special abilities. After each walk, Willie drops a marker that does 2 Dg to anyone failing a Df duel in BC with it. Apart from the fact that Willie's a very solid M&SU model, he gets past the Arcane Shield, allows the Gunsmiths to gain fast (cheat to succeed... 2 damage is too much). This also works with Armored M&SU models, such as Metal Gamin. Is it worth it to damage your own models? I dunno. I still feel like IS has a lot of exploitable weaknesses and only so many strengths. She's great at: - Pushing/pulling - That one-turn damage bomb - Buffing certain buddies - Turf War, Distract/Cursed Object Her weaknesses are: - Card management and suits - Wp duels, including terror. This is exacerbated by the first point of card management - Many of her abilities require crew clumping - Ca/Sh actions bypass her major Df trigger - Her necessity to get into compromising position to "do her thing" - LOT of competing (0) actions. - Df triggers and the potential to be pushed out of engagement... really, that's a rather simple and almost crippling threat - With Challenge the Crowd, she sometimes doesn't want to kill a model because she needs to be engaged to 2+ for her bonuses. The avatar (if left in its current state) will mitigate the last weakness (and give her yet another competing (0) action)), but it's looking like an auto-include for the in-your-face-style of play as it sits now. I do enjoy the girl, but man, she's a puzzle. I'm hoping that future plays will reveal more playstyles (I play Marcus as a base, so I'm used to having a half-dozen playstyle archtypes). If not, no big deal, but I'd be sorely disappointed. In the meantime... happy brawling! 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Fancy_Hat Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 I have yet to use this myself, but you could also start with a Mobile Toolkit and have it explode to do 1 pt of damage to everyone. You can also give a construct a fun bonus for turn one with its zero action, and it's a point cheaper than the electrical creation. I had not thought of using Angelica with her. I have thrown in Cassandra in conjunction with The Captain, to get out an extra airburst for more pushing, but on either one the Practiced Production upgrade is always fun. On the topic of showgirls, I've been throwing in a Performer into the crew, for the Siren Call to get another "lure" in the crew, as I have yet to be a huge fan of Ironsides "lure" (giving an enemy an ap to attack my master isn't worth it). I have had recommendations to try out a Silent One in the list as well, which I am unsure of but will be doing at some point, as I do believe you will probably end up with a weird mix of models to get a good Ironsides crew. Your two general playstyles listed in your post are what I'm finding with her, however the first playstyle (when Ironsides gets to be a cool girl) is easily mitigated by opponents (simply spreading out or throwing a single model at Ironsides that she will have trouble taking down, notably Soulstone users can stop her Brass Knuckle trigger with a wound prevention flip). I've been throwing Ironsides on the table for my last few games and will probably keep doing so until I either figure her out or get so frustrated with her I stop bothering but as of now I've felt that she has all the right pieces to be good, they just don't line up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 To further support Fancy_Hat (from an opponent's perspective), I have faced Ironsides three times now (Once with Colette, Lilith, and Dreamer) and each game I just spread out (first time unintentionally and then I realized that was the best tactic) and basically minimized the pain she could cause. After that, it was easy enough to tie her up in combat, or just let her bounce around from one solo model to another and not really care as she wasn't any worse to me than any other beatstick a crew could hire, so ignored her. Now, her mages (all 3 in each game, but Blood Mage is my damn bane) were far more of a frustration in all games to me than Ironsides ever was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EntrepeNinja Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 I'm a huuuge proponent of Silent ones (in General). They come with a a 0 action heal, they can shoot into engagement, place blast templates and ice columns, have a really solid defensive trigger (especially good if your opponent wiffs with his/her first attack). That being said, Oxford Mages might be better in this crew makeup. The positive to attack and damage while hurt is freakin' crazy, and the windblast trigger helps push people into Ironside's blender-o-death. The oxford mages CAN'T shoot into engagement, so maybe it's a balance? The O.Ms wrangle people in, and the S.Os chuck heals, and fire in and carefully place blasts to avoid Toni.... Sounds kinda beast. ENinja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 I find that the easiest way to get stuff slightly hurt is for the Mages to slap it (and each other) with their (0) melee. You're not likely to use it for much else, except in desperate circumstances. Ironsides is definitely a puzzle. I feel like she's lacking something - automatically generating a point of Adrenaline when she activates would make her feel much more capable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordon Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Her DF trigger is pretty scary and can act as a huge deterrent. There are not many models capable of doing potential 4 damage out of their activation. This may be resource intensive, but luckily she comes with a healthy cashe of stones. Challenge the crowd gives her a 3/4 chance in flipping a , so if your planning on playing her aggressively this its a must have upgrade. I find her sweet spot is around 3-4 adrenaline. Now admittedly this can be difficult to obtain at times, but when you do, she can get quite a bit of work done. My experiences have been mixed as some games it's been a real pain to get adrenaline, and without adrenaline, she really seems handicapped. However on the other hand, when you can consistently sit on 3-4 adrenaline a turn, she can do some pretty incredible things. As for models I use to get take off a point of damage to gain a benefit from HPM, mouse is perfectly suited for this. Generally I'll use the cptn to push up mouse and then use mouses drag for a movement bonus as well as the ever important 1 damage on the weak flip. Also Willie is a efficient way to deal damage when running a construct based crew as he can walk and place blast markers, so your not wasting your AP and all of our constructs have at least armour +1 so they'd only take 1 damage as a result of this. Also I find the firestarter works as well if not better with IS then with Kaeris. Wreckless lets her immediately gain fast, as well as being able to benefit from HPM. Buuuurn can do some incredible damage when given to damage flips and again given the crews plethora of push effects and potential burning, both her gas can and trigger on buuuurn can see some play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EntrepeNinja Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 I feel like using adrenaline to go from the 2ap to the 1ap seems a little silly, but the other way is immense. If you've got targets (and hopefully mouse, captain, and some mages have been pushing 'em towards you, or at least into a pile...) Then you 1ap, drop adrenaline to 2 ap, reset the chain. Then 1ap, drop adranline for the 2ap, and reset again. If you have enough to hit and make 6 attacks, 9 AP worth of strikes? Drop imbued energies, and you can have a tekken style 10 hit combo (10 ap, I suppose- as I'm counting the 2ap as "2 hits" ) So the analagy is a little thing, but who cares, that's awesome. ENInja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTP Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 I'd like to pick her up, but what you describe EntrepeNinja, seem to require huge amounts of adrenalin, it cost two to trigger into Uppercut, and at only base Ml 4.... if you have already spent 2 to trigger into it, how many do you have left you bump the ml up into something decent, both the first time, and certainly the second? This is whats holding me back (along with the lack of models, and a dislike of proxying). how are you getting 6/8 adrenalin? or are you doing the above with 4? So drop 2 hit at ml6 (which is good) then drop 2 and hit at ml4 (which is not) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted October 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 I have had recommendations to try out a Silent One in the list as well, which I am unsure of but will be doing at some point, as I do believe you will probably end up with a weird mix of models to get a good Ironsides crew. Your two general playstyles listed in your post are what I'm finding with her, however the first playstyle (when Ironsides gets to be a cool girl) is easily mitigated by opponents (simply spreading out or throwing a single model at Ironsides that she will have trouble taking down, notably Soulstone users can stop her Brass Knuckle trigger with a wound prevention flip). I've been throwing Ironsides on the table for my last few games and will probably keep doing so until I either figure her out or get so frustrated with her I stop bothering but as of now I've felt that she has all the right pieces to be good, they just don't line up. Yep, and that's where I'm at. She needs to sift through so many small rules to get things that "line up." And I'll play another game or two with her and gravitate back to my man Marcus... and then a couple of months I'll get curious again and take her out. To further support Fancy_Hat (from an opponent's perspective), I have faced Ironsides three times now (Once with Colette, Lilith, and Dreamer) and each game I just spread out (first time unintentionally and then I realized that was the best tactic) and basically minimized the pain she could cause. After that, it was easy enough to tie her up in combat, or just let her bounce around from one solo model to another and not really care as she wasn't any worse to me than any other beatstick a crew could hire, so ignored her. Now, her mages (all 3 in each game, but Blood Mage is my damn bane) were far more of a frustration in all games to me than Ironsides ever was. That's where I'm sitting. A lot of masters have nasty things, but you have to puzzle out how to combat/mitigate it. To combat IS... don't get within 2" of her. If she gets within 2" of you, push her away. Done and done. I think next time I'll try out the support mode and see if I like it better. Her attack mode might be a situational/late-game thing. I'll try the silent ones though. I tried the Ox Mages in a cluster once but got alpha-striked to death before they weer effective. I'll field them again and keep them back a ways. We have our Wednesday get-together this week, and I'll break her out again. I'll give a batrep then if you guys want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 She has no way to generate adrenaline with out a being hit by a ML attack and triggering. Or activating near models. So when playing against things that have CA :close attacks it makes her sad. And being df 5 is a detriment to her. Top it off she neither gets a to either attacks or damage flips. With a lower damage track of 2/3/4. And again has to get s trigger to get more adrenaline. Instead of it being built in. Her hand picked men ability is nice. But is she s support master then? "Luring" things to punch her in the head so her other models can take them out while she regeneration 1 at the end of the turn and only if she had adrenaline. I keep playing her and every time she dies. Having :+fate to df duels is fine and all but things still bash her teeth in just fine. I want her to be better I really do. So I will keep plugging away at her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EntrepeNinja Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 @OTP I'm not, but the potential is so exciting. You may have to store your adrenaline for a turn or two as you're fighting- get a couple from starting near folk, Brass Knuckles with Warm Up trigger for a couple more, lose one at the end of the turn, then start near more models the next turn- she's good at keeping people near her with ml7 to disengaging strikes. I think that Ironsides suffers from hyper-specialization. She's a tarpit master and a beatstick to boot, but her support is more passive and she doesn't have a lot of direct tricks besides making people have to attack her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted October 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 My issue with her is that pretty much anything she specializes in, other masters don't specialize in, and still do it better. - Wanna do melee? Pretty much any master has a better (1) damage track than 2/3/4. - Wanna move models around? You Looking at Me? is nowhere near as good as Tangle Shadows, and let's be honest, people use Lilith to hit things more than movement tricks. - Wanna be really defensive? Well you can be! Just not against Ca or Sh actions. (Counterspell's useful against more complex spells, but many masters have a spell they can cast without suits). - Wanna do burning? Message From the Union is actually really powerful, even more so than some of Kaeris' stuff... but it's always an either-or, do that and only that, or do something else. - Wanna buff? Better fricking capitalize on Hand-Picked Men and base the entirety of your very specifically-selected crew around it, only to have them weakened with 1 fewer wound. - Wanna have a self-movement trick? Gotta have adrenaline first, and then it's only 6"... not really that impressive. - Wanna survive? 14 Wd's and HtK is nice, but it's not Organ Donor (McM) or Proper Manners (Zoraida) nice. - Wanna heal? Here, have a tick per turn or two if you have the regen mage. That makes the regen mage almost auto-include, first of all, and there are several masters that do it better. Iron Determination gives you a bunch at a time if you're willing (again) to give up the entire reason you took her. - Wanna use your hand on other models? Don't cheat the suits you need to function... ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippodruid Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 My issue with her is that pretty much anything she specializes in, other masters don't specialize in, and still do it better. - Wanna do melee? Pretty much any master has a better (1) damage track than 2/3/4. - Wanna move models around? You Looking at Me? is nowhere near as good as Tangle Shadows, and let's be honest, people use Lilith to hit things more than movement tricks. - Wanna be really defensive? Well you can be! Just not against Ca or Sh actions. (Counterspell's useful against more complex spells, but many masters have a spell they can cast without suits). - Wanna do burning? Message From the Union is actually really powerful, even more so than some of Kaeris' stuff... but it's always an either-or, do that and only that, or do something else. - Wanna buff? Better fricking capitalize on Hand-Picked Men and base the entirety of your very specifically-selected crew around it, only to have them weakened with 1 fewer wound. - Wanna have a self-movement trick? Gotta have adrenaline first, and then it's only 6"... not really that impressive. - Wanna survive? 14 Wd's and HtK is nice, but it's not Organ Donor (McM) or Proper Manners (Zoraida) nice. - Wanna heal? Here, have a tick per turn or two if you have the regen mage. That makes the regen mage almost auto-include, first of all, and there are several masters that do it better. Iron Determination gives you a bunch at a time if you're willing (again) to give up the entire reason you took her. - Wanna use your hand on other models? Don't cheat the suits you need to function... ever. I'll just start this off by saying that I really like Toni and where she stands. She's a definite consideration for me in some games, although not all. I'll try to address the above on a point-by-point basis. - Wanna do melee? Pretty much any master has a better (1) damage track than 2/3/4. Ironsides isn't really a melee beatstick master. She's a melee-oriented tank and support master with huge combo potential, but patience is required to make that potential shine. My opponents don't really cluster on her, and I honestly view that as a good thing. They're actively trying to avoid her. This frees her up for scheming or playing to the strategy. - Wanna move models around? You Looking at Me? is nowhere near as good as Tangle Shadows, and let's be honest, people use Lilith to hit things more than movement tricks. I love You Looking at Me? Nothing says loving like two gunsmiths pushing their charge upfield and getting fast with no repercussions off of 1 AP (I'll even stone for the if I don't have it in hand). At least one local player will save low cards in his hand instead of stoning, also, just so his weak-melee-damage models will miss when they swing at her after the push. - Wanna be really defensive? Well you can be! Just not against Ca or Sh actions. (Counterspell's useful against more complex spells, but many masters have a spell they can cast without suits). How many non-Master-level models in the game have damaging Ca or Sh actions that can be done in melee? I can think of a few off-hand, but I'd be willing to bet it's a single-digit number, or low double-digits. Toni is a riot-breaker, not an assassin. The things she wants to be fighting are things that are going to be ruined by her if they take a swing until her Round of GloryTM. - Wanna do burning? Message From the Union is actually really powerful, even more so than some of Kaeris' stuff... but it's always an either-or, do that and only that, or do something else. If I want to burn things, I usually just take Kaeris in the first place. I took the upgrade once and had a really unsatisfying game (Reconnoiter against Seamus). I suppose it could be helpful when dealing with a centralized objective and flankers, but I do agree that it doesn't quite fit, at least not in my builds. But hey, there are a lot of other great upgrades to consider. - Wanna buff? Better fricking capitalize on Hand-Picked Men and base the entirety of your very specifically-selected crew around it, only to have them weakened with 1 fewer wound. I've never had a problem with an opponent wanting to hurt my models. Is this an uncommon thing? I primarily run M&SU with Toni, so it's just a built-in thing for me (usually the Arcane Effigy is the only non-M&SU model I run). That single bit of synergy from Hand-Picked Men makes me grin every time Johan gets hurt or a Gunsmith takes a few wounds. - Wanna have a self-movement trick? Gotta have adrenaline first, and then it's only 6"... not really that impressive. This seems a bit like sour grapes. Impressive compared to who? Perdita? Mei Feng? Lilith? Sure, it's a middle-of-the-road ability, but likely the reason I lost my last game with Toni was because I prioritized a different (0) action. Asrian was there; he knows. She doesn't need a huge movement jump to be effective, so she doesn't have one. But this one can make a big difference in a game that's largely about placement. - Wanna survive? 14 Wd's and HtK is nice, but it's not Organ Donor (McM) or Proper Manners (Zoraida) nice. Again, a little sour-grapes-y. Can you imagine a game where Toni punched someone and healed even half of the wounds she dealt, especially once her combo-chain started? Even with a maximum of five per turn, I'm sure that would be pretty damn broken. What she's got is still better than Lady Justice, Sonnia, Tara (though Through the Hole is hilariously effective), Marcus, Hoffman (sans machines), Viktoria, Perdita (if we're just counting wounds and abilities on the card (stupid El Mayor)), Lilith, Pandora (I freely admit these last two are iffy), Collodi, Lucius, Jakob Lynch, Lucas McCabe (even with his two health bars), Yan Lo, Shenlong, Misaki, Kirai, Som'er, Ophelia, and Mah Tucket. The survivability of these masters comes out in play and upgrade selection, and Toni's got a decent head-start in that direction. Stand Up, Stand Tall, Warding Runes plus Doom Ward, and Adrenaline are just gravy. Good gravy, but gravy. - Wanna heal? Here, have a tick per turn or two if you have the regen mage. That makes the regen mage almost auto-include, first of all, and there are several masters that do it better. Iron Determination gives you a bunch at a time if you're willing (again) to give up the entire reason you took her. Hm. I didn't look ahead to the next question (maybe something about doing a mental list of all the masters in the game for survivability) before I finished the last one. For an Arcanist Master, Toni has access to a lot of healing. Mouse has a good, if finicky heal. Johan has other synergy but brings a great heal especially when running heavy on M&SU. I already talked about three other methods reasonably unique to Ironsides. Silent Ones are also good healers, although they're far from unique to her. - Wanna use your hand on other models? Don't cheat the suits you need to function... ever. How is this any different from saving a high or three for Raspy or the Viks? She beats both of them in cache count handily, so she can buy suits she needs (her thematic crew gives her stones back, too). Sure Toni can crank out the virtual AP, but no matter what master you're playing, it all comes down to which-cards-do-I-use and which-cards-do-I-save (except Lynch, damn him, and maybe Tara, thematically (Cards? Who needs cards?))? You can prioritize your master or you can spread the love around your crew or you can burn all your good cards on Howard Langston brutalizing something (this one is never really a bad choice, especially with Hand-Picked Men up and running). Again, it's a matter of perspective. Even in the games I've lost, I've still had a good time playing Toni, mostly because my opponents will go to extreme ends to make sure they'll shut down her abilities (cheating an ace for an obligatory attack with a Rotten Belle, for example(it was also fun to "lure" a Rotten Belle)) or because her abilities have worked and been fun to use. It's about finding that right fit, and I think you may have been looking in the wrong direction. I hope this helps out a little bit. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Reading over my post, it does sound a little more aggravated than I intended. I'm going to keep playing her and I'll put a batrep up here when I can get a game in, but I think you're right about the right fit. Thanks for the perspective, Hippo! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I will attest to Hippo being one of the games I played against her. Had she suddenly jumped her 6" move on me, it would have shifted my focus for a few of my plans. I'll also attest to wanting to break a few things when she healed up with her AP. It was a Reckoning game, and while I never plan to take out Masters in games, to have a very resilient opponent suddenly take a punch to the jaw, grin, and stand up again is disheartening. Sometimes it's not about how much damage model A can do, but how much they can take thus eating up enemy resources (AP), while still being a constant threat. To that end, Ironsides is damn evil, in a good way, but evil nonetheless. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EntrepeNinja Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 It's nice to hear from someone who's got some positive experience from her as well! Thanks Hippo! I never would have thought about using "You lookin at me" on gunsmiths. They can't take a (1) ML attack because they don't frickin' have one. That's brilliant. The same can be said about Oxford Mages. That's just ugly. And awesome. Also, if you drop that on any enemy who doesn't have a melee, CA7 vs WP is almost as good as a Lure. And if they have a weak minimum melee attack, maybe even better. She is unique in the way that she literally has a trigger or power that is dependent on every suit- Df Nice Shot My Turn Ml Warm Up Ml Who Wants Some/Follow Through CA Next! So she can literally use every suit well. With the friendly lure idea on the board, low books and low masks start looking good, High Books, Crows, and Masks look good. And a 5 chache is great for burning for suit, but keeping them to prevent damage might also be a factor? I love the concept, and those tricks make me look at her in a new light. I can't wait to field this tough broad. ENinja 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I'm with you on that Ninja. Aside from Colette (my next crew after I finish painting my Collodi crew), Ironsides is the other main Arcanist master I'm wanting to play. Damn you Wyrd, Must have models! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EntrepeNinja Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I've got a solid Dofer set of models to start playing- a genderswapped captain and Ironsides model, three mages, and mousling indiana jones for my mouse model. :3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 It's nice to hear from someone who's got some positive experience from her as well! Thanks Hippo! I never would have thought about using "You lookin at me" on gunsmiths. They can't take a (1) ML attack because they don't frickin' have one. That's brilliant. The same can be said about Oxford Mages. That's just ugly. And awesome. Also, if you drop that on any enemy who doesn't have a melee, CA7 vs WP is almost as good as a Lure. And if they have a weak minimum melee attack, maybe even better. She is unique in the way that she literally has a trigger or power that is dependent on every suit- Df Nice Shot My Turn Ml Warm Up Ml Who Wants Some/Follow Through CA Next! So she can literally use every suit well. With the friendly lure idea on the board, low books and low masks start looking good, High Books, Crows, and Masks look good. And a 5 chache is great for burning for suit, but keeping them to prevent damage might also be a factor? I love the concept, and those tricks make me look at her in a new light. I can't wait to field this tough broad. ENinja That's a good point! Alright, I'll spend some thought on that when I play on Wednesday. And I'll proxy the gunsmiths to see how well they work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EntrepeNinja Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Hahahahaha.... I just realized. So, I was rereading my post, and thought, "Wait a minute. If the oxford mage doesn't have a melee attack, maybe they also don't have a charge value?" Then I thought, "Does the upgrade that allows for the CA to be a melee have a charge on it?" Then I looked at the O.M's card, and realized they do have a charge value. And no applicable melee attack. (They have a 0 action CA attack with a 1" range). This means: The OM can be "You Lookin' At Me"d. A stock Oxford Mage cannot charge- as I believe the wording is "make 2 ranged attacks with a cost of 1" An Oxford Mage with the proper upgrade CAN charge, though unless there is an engagement in process, you'd probably be better off with a furious casting. ENinja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted October 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Alright, so that presents another "mode" of IS, a crew mover (or maybe that's an addendum to the support mode). That sounds pretty fun. The Ox Magi can't attack her with YL@M, and with a mask, she gets another one up there for free. Same goes for the Gunsmiths. Cap moves her up 5" with 3 masks in hand, she could feasibly move 6 models up their charge first turn, or cap-push/walk and move 2 models up x2 charge. That'd give her the advancement and some support so she doesn't get isolated. I like it. Or how about, Willie a blast marker into the magi, Cap IS 5" forward, she YL@M's one mage, triggers into the second one, and then YL@M's again into the third, which has the 2" range. The mage smacks her for 2 and pushes her 4/6" due to # of tomes, and she triggers the second YL@M in to pull something else. Not bad for 2 AP and two 6+ masks. Now she's 9/11" up, the magi are 6" up (and yet to activate with + to offensive flips), and an AP to YL@M an enemy potentially or toss a Message from the Union to the enemy. That could be a fun opening move. Don't think I'd SS the masks in, but there's potential there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 As promised, here's a rough batrep of my game with Ironsides versus Somer. I ended up winning, didn't count the score because i killed Lenny, who had both Entourage and Bodyguard on him, so it was a done deal. She was solid, much more so that I expected. Strat - Turf War I took Cursed Object and Bodyguard (Cap) He took Bodyguard and Entourage (Lenny) It was a 35 SS game, so I didn't get to try the mages out, but the Gunsmiths pulled their weight, as did the Captain (which is never a surprise). Ironsides performed well also. The first turn setup involved my luring two gunsmiths up (couldn't get the fast triggers, but that was fine), and then she positioned herself. The Cap killed Trixibelle on a crucial turn and gave me a much-needed SS (I thought that Bayou Gremlins were 4 cost, so IS took Siphon Soul, but alas). Then in a later turn, IS got 3 Adrenaline and slaughtered Lenny mercilessly in two AP. Very nice. I enjoyed the game, though I don't think this was a good test of her true abilities. I'd like to see her in a 50 SS game and get the feel of her there. I think a lot of the angst I'd been having with her is that I've been using her against 2 opponents... and every game until this one I faced the Hanged. Awful model to face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 I think a lot of the angst I'd been having with her is that I've been using her against 2 opponents... and every game until this one I faced the Hanged. Awful model to face. I would have expected Ironsides to be fairly well equipped to deal with the Hanged - bringing a bunch of Mages not only gives you a ton of pretty nasty Ca attacks, but makes Ironsides immune to hostile Conditions. The Hanged literally can't touch her at that point. I mean, she's not going to have as easy a time as Rasputina, but still, she's better off compared to most Masters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybarite Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Doesn't the counter spell from warding runes also help against hanged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brdparker Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Maybe that's what I'm missing. Maybe that rune mage is an auto-include? Or at least a strong consideration. I'll keep that in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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