New player..how to deal with Ressers?!

[Electromatic]

Heya everybody!

 

So I just played my 3rd game ever tonight. My first game was to be frank really lame, and wrong on alot of rules, but against Kirai and using a friends crew not my own.

 

Second game was using a friends Lilith crew against Lucius and won pretty well, which prompted me to buy Neverborn.

 

Tonight I took Jakob Lynch against against McMourning and basically got tabled by turn 3 in a 50 pt game. I'm not crazy about Jakob but I had almost no chances to get off my Brilliance and when I did I missed alot which did not help. But at the same hand, all of his things were as fast or faster than mine with more health and insane amounts of poison. So my question is....WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO AGAINST THEM?! I've never really felt so up against a wall and out of options in a miniature game. I've heard that one of the Ressers big fallbacks is needing tokens to summon, but he completely negated that with an upgrade. On top of McMourning being an absolute beast in combat I felt like I was up against a force with so many options and way to stack damage and I was really just out of my league in every imaginable way. Any advice is appreciated, because at this point I'm already kind of under that if you can't beat em join em mentality. Sorry to sound so whiny but just....damn ><

 

Thanks!

[Kalkris]

I don't like to be the one to suggest Mercenaries as I think they are a copout unless they're being built around deliberately, but have you considered Johan? He is good for condition removal, something the Neverborn faction seems to severely falter in. That way, McMourning cannot expunge for hefty amounts at a time since he won't do all too much at once beforehand. Beyond that option, make sure you're focusing more on objectives than taking on the likes of the opposing crew, if possible. If you absolutely have no other option but to face McM head on, remember that his Willpower is fairly low for a master's, so perhaps Pandora is your best bet for a master. Also to help that theme, another decent merc is Bishop, since he can target Wp as well.

 

According to the likes of the McMourning page on PullMyFinger, the Malifaux tactica wiki, Candy (or was it Baby Kade? The one that incites) would be good against McMourning. You'll want to Incite against McMourning, then Sebastian, then any other big-name threats, so they must go first, and then once they have gone, you take them on in an alpha strike or similar. Since he has gone, he can't heal his 5Wd from melee attacks, and hopefully his Nurses have gone already or are dead, so they cannot heal the Doctor up to full.

 

I do believe that Pandora's thematic would be the right choice for a new or initial purchase for you, if McMourning bothers you as much as it does.

 

As for Lynch's lot, I do think that he is a difficult case to crack in regards to the Good Doctor. I think adding in Johan may help, if only because then he becomes a big target and perhaps hte opponent will fail to focus as much on Lynch and co., giving them an edge to pull off objectives.

 

Hope this helps.

 

~Lil Kalki

[admiralvorkraft]

Welcome to Malifaux.

I'm also a new player, and as far as I can tell the way that balance works in this game is that EVERYTHING is powerful. Lynch is one of my favorite masters because of his insane hand control tricks, when you've got his activation order down you can basically play every other turn without aces in your deck, he can deal out massive amounts of damage and you can mostly hit at will because you have an incredibly strong hand. Run with Mr. Tannen and you've got a bubble where all of your masks (most of your trigger cards) all get plus 2, throw in a Beckoner or two and you can pull his crew apart piecemeal.

I've gotten tabled the first time that I've come up against basically any powerful combination. The second time I've done rather better, and the third time it's a competitive game. All I can tell you is, don't give into despair, play conservatively if you don't know what you're up against, carry out your schemes, learn from your mistakes.

When you pull of the great plays and last second come-backs it is a really incredible experience. I love this game immensely, but it is not forgiving to people (like me) who are inclined to be doomsayers.

Not practical advice, but maybe it'll help.

[Electromatic]

Cool! I think I might actually have Johan from my Lynch crew that came in the box (I got something called Johana....? I dunno if that is the model or what)

 

As far as the objectives I really tried to, we had Turf War, and my Schemes were Power Ritual and I forget the name but basically the scheme where I got 1 VP for each model of mine on his side or in his deployment zone or whatever. But we got Flank Deployment and he was able to send his Frankenstein things towards the Turf War and dominate what I sent there, and sent McMourning the dogs and McMournings guy with the bonesaw towards my Tots running around the outside for objectives. I basically got cornered and pinched really early on, basically having my Illuminated being charged turn 2 and unable to really get out much if any Brilliance.

 

I might look into Pandora, but I dunno the main reason I got into Neverborn was the speedy chopping style of Lilith I'm usually not too big on characters that sit back and cast all the time in games so maybe I kinda chose the wrong faction from the start ><

[Mason]

If your McMourning opponent is hitting the Expunge hard, it's often best to focus your attention upon the models carrying the Transfusion upgrade into battle, as without that upgrade, McMourning has to spend time building up Poison on models.  Transfusion lets him move Poison from one model to another, usually using a heavily poisoned Flesh Construct or Guild Autopsy onto one of your models, which McMourning then Expunges.  Sebastian and Rafkin seem to be the more common choices when it comes to this; you'll almost never see McMourning with it, as he can't Transfusion and Expunge in the same turn. 

 

If this is the sort of trick your opponent is relying upon, one solution is to use Beckoners to lure the Transfusion target closer to your own models (giving them Brilliance in the process) and then hit them hard with Illuminated and/or the Hungering Darkness.  Once Transfusion is out of the picture, the McMourning matchup becomes a lot easier. 

 

Though, honestly, using Beckoners to lure something closer and give them Brilliance so Illuminated/the Darkness can kill them is a pretty good trick that works against most models. 

 

 

I wouldn't bring Candy.  Flesh Constructs are immune to her Manipulative ability and can just one-shot Devour her. 

[Electromatic]

Ah alright, well just to help out with advice I guess I'll try to recall his list as best as I can, like I said I dunno alot of things in the game yet. But at 50 points what I remember was him having:

 

McMourning

Sebastian

2 Flesh Constructs

3 or 4 Zombie Dogs including the Chihuahua which is different I guess

1 Nurse

1 Zombie....hooker? I don't remember what it's called ><

 

I think that was it model wise, and as far as upgrades I remember him having the one where McMourning can summon after he kills a living model not needing the tokens. 

 

And yeah he basically just bounced around poison like crazy, getting one Illuminated up to like Poison 6 at one point.

 

It basically got to a point just by the second turn where he had killed 3 or so of my models and had more than me so he was just letting me activate all my things and then when I had no activations left would sweep in with McMourning and Sebastian and do all the nasty things he wanted to do, and basically by the end of turn 2 I only had 1 Terror Tot left.

 

Oh and I should probably include my list!

 

I only have the Lynch crew box and the Lilith box so at 50 points my list was

 

Lynch

Hungering Darkness

3 Illuminated

Barbatos 

3 Terror Tots

 

Edit: Included more details and my own list

[zFiend]

Well my experience as a McMourning player is that Johan is a waste of points. You won't make it alive or to a spot to take away the poison. An illuminated for example with the same cost is a better choice.

What I would recommend you do is outright kill the model with Transfusion. Sebastian, Rafkin whoever it is. Then expunge just won't happen. Sebastian also isn't the most survivable model out there. Lure him with a Beckoner, destroy him with Huggy or an Illuminated.

Then it's up to McMourning himself to get the poison in but it sure takes more AP. If you get to engage a brilliant McMourning he shouldn't last too long with Def 5 if you are on plus flips to attack and damage even with 14 wounds.

You could also try the Doppelganger + Huggy combo. You are almost guaranteed to win the initiative as you can cheat it. Take the Doppelganger, copy Huggys Heed My Voice use it to target Huggy and fail the WP duel, repeat. Paralyzed McMourning is a sad McMourning.

Edit: Ninja' by Mindshred.

[Dirial]

Lots of good advice here. Don't give in to the doom and gloom. Think about what his abilities did (or read about them at the wiki) and try again. It will work much better.

 

Your list is missing Beckoners to single out models for charges.

 

As a side note: Pandora does not hang back, oh no. She comes right for you! You will see her coming, and you will watch her take your models apart, and you will despair! You definitely did not choose the wrong faction if you want to get in and take models apart.

[Electromatic]

Ok as dumb as it sounds, that's actually a pretty big relief. I might grab her this week I remember seeing her crew at my FLGS. And yeah I usually don't give into doom and gloom with mini gaming...but man I don't think I've ever been beat that relentlessly. I kinda just sat there watching my army die after a point ;.;

[Dirial]

Ok as dumb as it sounds, that's actually a pretty big relief. I might grab her this week I remember seeing her crew at my FLGS. And yeah I usually don't give into doom and gloom with mini gaming...but man I don't think I've ever been beat that relentlessly. I kinda just sat there watching my army die after a point ;.;

 

It happened to me, too. My first game against Pandora was like that, and Nicodem has done it, too. Rasputina is a big offender in my play group, provoking a rage quit from time to time. It usually happens when some crew has a different game play. You expect things, and then they turn the game rules around and do something totally unexpected. Live and learn, identify the lynchpin moves for their trickery and deny them that. McM is a tough opponent, but Lynch is, too, and it will balance out with time and experience.

 

Another side note: Wait till the game you don't lose a model, and still watch yourself lose badly! Now, that is an unusual experience. I was totally dumbfounded.

[Math Mathonwy]

Ok as dumb as it sounds, that's actually a pretty big relief. I might grab her this week I remember seeing her crew at my FLGS. And yeah I usually don't give into doom and gloom with mini gaming...but man I don't think I've ever been beat that relentlessly. I kinda just sat there watching my army die after a point ;.;

Malifaux has this annoying thing that when you first play against a given Master, you are at a huge disadvantage. Once you have a game or two under your belt against someone you'll recognize the key interactions and can neuter the right targets but the first time is always rough.

As for McMourning, very solid advice has been given. His real weakness is his Wp and he will die to concentrated attention from Illuminated and Lynch himself. And the same goes for Sebastian, essentially.

Also, don't be afraid to activate Lynch earlier in the round. Waiting until all your other stuff has activated can be amazing, but he deals a lot of damage and sometimes that is needed earlier in the round.

[zFiend]

Yeah and Lynch is the most reliable source of Brilliance as well. Mulligan the bad cards from the get go to get higher cards, tag Brilliance to Seb or McMourning with Play For Blood (Ca 8) and 2 dmg, shoot once with Unload 4/5/6 dmg spread and then Show a trick if you have those aces for 2-4 damage more and leave that model hanging with Brilliance is a death sentence Or if that model already has brilliance from a Beckoner for example, just shoot again! Or use Final Debt. Lynch can bring a ton of hurt for McMourning or Sebastian.  

[Dirial]

Yeah and Lynch is the most reliable source of Brilliance as well. Mulligan the bad cards from the get go to get higher cards, tag Brilliance to Seb or McMourning with Play For Blood (Ca 8) and 2 dmg, shoot once with Unload 4/5/6 dmg spread and then Show a trick if you have those aces for 2-4 damage more and leave that model hanging with Brilliance is a death sentence Or if that model already has brilliance from a Beckoner for example, just shoot again! Or use Final Debt. Lynch can bring a ton of hurt for McMourning or Sebastian.

 

I once made the serious mistake of making a bee line for Lynch with Lady Justice. I thought my Master was the bigger threat of them both. I never again lost her that fast. That bugger doesn't take it like other Masters, but he sure can deal it out!

[Mason]

Just to make sure that your people are playing correctly, I just want to note that McMourning only has three options for summoning models, and they all work in different ways. 

 

1) Maniacal Laugh:  This upgrade allows McMourning to turn all Corpse Markers in a wide radius into Mindless Zombies.  Mindless Zombies are rather weak, but they can eat up activations and get in your way. 

 

2) Spare Parts:  This upgrade gives McMourning two actions, one that turns a corpse into a Guild Autopsy, and one that turns four corpses into a Rogue Necromancy. 

 

3) Moonlighting:  This upgrade gives McMourning an ability and a trigger.  The ability allows him to summon a Canine Remains from a model that dies near him, but only if that model is killed by the Poison Condition (and not, say, his main melee attack or his Expunge action).   The trigger allows him to summon a Flesh Construct when he kills a model, but only if he kills it with the Expunge action. 

 

He can hire other models to summon things as well, but for McMourning himself, those are his options.  I know that we had one new player here that misread his Moonlighting upgrade and thought that he got a free dog whenever he killed a model with the Poison Condition, instead of when a model died from Poison damage. 

[zFiend]

I once made the serious mistake of making a bee line for Lynch with Lady Justice. I thought my Master was the bigger threat of them both. I never again lost her that fast. That bugger doesn't take it like other Masters, but he sure can deal it out!

 

Hahaha, amazing

[Dirial]

Hahaha, amazing

 

You bet! My opponent really played me well that time. All the Lady accomplished was being framed for the murder of a Tot, and then she died of shame of her horrible gambling debts.

 

Entertaining game, and the Dark Debts crew really handled itself well.

[zFiend]

Might be a bit off topic, but do you think the outcome would be the same today with the restriction on Final Debt? 

[Dirial]

Might be a bit off topic, but do you think the outcome would be the same today with the restriction on Final Debt? 

 

Probably. I'm not sure. That gun doesn't do much less damage, and Lynch can be more offensive with his cards.

[zFiend]

I have been playing Lynch lately without the Woke up with a Hand. I have been trialing around with Rising Sun, Addict and Wanna see a trick. I have been having a blast

[Electromatic]

Just to make sure that your people are playing correctly, I just want to note that McMourning only has three options for summoning models, and they all work in different ways. 

 

1) Maniacal Laugh:  This upgrade allows McMourning to turn all Corpse Markers in a wide radius into Mindless Zombies.  Mindless Zombies are rather weak, but they can eat up activations and get in your way. 

 

2) Spare Parts:  This upgrade gives McMourning two actions, one that turns a corpse into a Guild Autopsy, and one that turns four corpses into a Rogue Necromancy. 

 

3) Moonlighting:  This upgrade gives McMourning an ability and a trigger.  The ability allows him to summon a Canine Remains from a model that dies near him, but only if that model is killed by the Poison Condition (and not, say, his main melee attack or his Expunge action).   The trigger allows him to summon a Flesh Construct when he kills a model, but only if he kills it with the Expunge action. 

 

He can hire other models to summon things as well, but for McMourning himself, those are his options.  I know that we had one new player here that misread his Moonlighting upgrade and thought that he got a free dog whenever he killed a model with the Poison Condition, instead of when a model died from Poison damage. 

 

Yeah he took the third one, and pretty much was just leaving everything he could with poison still with 1 health so at the end of the turn they would die from the poison. He also did the expunge trigger for a Flesh Construct. So he was definitely playing it right, I know the guy didn't cheat, but damn just it seemed sooo strong. 

[Dirial]

Yeah he took the third one, and pretty much was just leaving everything he could with poison still with 1 health so at the end of the turn they would die from the poison. He also did the expunge trigger for a Flesh Construct. So he was definitely playing it right, I know the guy didn't cheat, but damn just it seemed sooo strong. 

 

Yeah, it is. Personally, I think McM poison bombing is one of the strongest effects in the game. He is not as flexible a summoner as Nicodem, or as independent as Molly or Dreamer, but he summons by doing was he was going to do anyway. Hamelin and Sonnia do a similar thing: summoning by killing, or out of activation. If they get the ball rolling, it can feel overwhelming very fast.

 

It  don't think it's overpowered at the moment, though. Once you have seen it, you start planning around it. You target the poison shifters with Transfusion early, or bury or paralyze models instead of killing, or you bring Taelor (Expunge really suffers against Hard to Kill, too). You should expect summoning from Ressers, and thus you bring anti-summoning tech. You should also expect conditions from them (Adversary, Poison, Paralyze, Slow...), so bring Johan or similar models.

 

It really works: Ressers are not significantly harder to beat than the other factions, they just need different tactics to beat. Similar questions are asked about the ranged game of Guild, for example. That's why it's important to tailor your list AFTER you learned which faction you're facing.

[Ausplosions]

Just remember if a model dies from poison he doesn't get the credit for the Kill towards strategy and schemes.

[Gorbad]

Another option is that if you know a model is going to die from poison and you don't want him to summon from it kill it yourself. It might or might not be a good option, it sort of depends on the game state and positions, but if he was counting on getting a summon out of that it might be better. Same thing happens a lot with things like Distract and Curse Object.

[zFiend]

Another option is that if you know a model is going to die from poison and you don't want him to summon from it kill it yourself. It might or might not be a good option, it sort of depends on the game state and positions, but if he was counting on getting a summon out of that it might be better. Same thing happens a lot with things like Distract and Curse Object.

 

It takes one AP to kill your own model, it takes a lot more AP to kill a full health Construct

[Furious T]

Heed My Voice specifically states "target enemy non-leader model" and that this model is considered friendly for duration of the turn. In short, you can't target McMourning with this action.