How does Flay work with a negative damage flip

[Kharetore]

Hi all

 

I'm new to Malifaux and have a question about that Flay that came up in a game.

 

I was playing a Lilith mother of monster box set plus a Black blood Shaman so a full Nephilim list.

 

I took the Obsidian Talons upgrade that gives all friendly Nephilim models flay.

 

Flay - The damage flip resulting from this attack may be cheated if it suffers one or more - flip.

 

Our group said that on a negative damage flip that you always take the lowest damage that is flipped.

 

In the game I flipped a 3 (weak) and 7 (moderate) I said I then want to cheat fate (I had the required two masks) and see if I can increase the damage from weak to moderate or severe.

But was told that I would still only be allowed to take the lowest card and lowest damage.

To me this is wrong as there would be no point at all for this upgrade as you can never improve the outcome.

 

How I read the rule is during the negative flip for damage I take the lowest damage but then I can cheat on the negative flip as you can't normally. This cheat is treat as any normal normal cheat and you use that card you cheat so I can increase the damage I do.

[StuffedKiwi]

You are right: Flay, provided you have the suits for the trigger (two masks for Obsidian Talons), allows you to cheat a card from your hand to replace what has been flipped, even if your flip was a negative, double negative, or triple negative flip. That is, in your example, you would be able to ignore both the 3 and the 7 that you flipped, and use instead the value of a card you play from your hand.

I'm pretty sure that, even with Flay, you remain unable to cheat if one of your cards flipped was the Black Joker.

[Dracomax]

You also remain unable to cheat against impossible to wound.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Pretty certain you cannot cheat the black Joker, as the black joker specifically prevents cheating. Flay allows you to override the effects of a negative flip on cheating, it doesn't allow you to ignore every rule that prevents cheating. As a case in point if a model with flay attacks a model with impossible to wound the model with Flay still cannot cheat the dmg flip.

 

Impossible to wound as a rule specifically prevents the ability to cheat the dmg flip.

A negative flip specifically prevents the ability to cheat the dmg flip.

 

Flay gives a rule which overcomes the rule that a negative flip cannot be cheated, but it doesn't over-rule Impossible to wound's rule.

 

The same with the black Joker. It's an additional no cheating rule that Flay does not overcome.

 

 

EDIT: sorry misread your post where it looked like you said you Could cheat the black. Poor quick reading comprehension on my part. Leaving post intact however for new player clarity should any browse the thread.

[Hateful Darkblack]

You're correct. When you cheat, you take that instead. Flay is really good that way. It lets you cheat.

The person who told you otherwise? They made a mistake and misunderstood what the trigger does.

[Adran]

When you flip multiple cards, you have to choose which one is used in the duel. If you are on a negative flip, you have to choose the lowest of them, but if 2 or more are tied for the lowest you get to pick which from those. The non selected card(s) no longer matter at all. 

 

After the card is selected to use in the duel/damage flip there is the chance to cheat fate (see rules above for when you can/can't cheat). This will replace the selected card with the card from your hand. So the only card that matters at the end is the final card.

So you will only end up with 1 card to work out the final duel total/damage level.

 

In a related note if you are on a positive flip in a duel, you need to pick which one of the cards you use for your total before either side has a chance to cheat, and once you decide, you can no longer use the other card in the duel.