M2e Kaeris

[Spike0738]

Aimed at Spikes list

To me that looks a very static list.

What would run schemes? What would kill opponents/deny opponents VPs?

 

 

 

Johan? Gunsmith? Burning? 

WIth Grab and Drop you could drop some Scheme Markers and such. Idk... Hard to put together a solid list with no points. 

Gunsmith is easily the best option to remove opponents models in any Kaeris list (unless maybe you bring Howard or Rail Golem)... With Burning + the potential triggers from Gunsmith, you're easily doing some solid damage to models each turn.. Especially since you have some area damage capability with him. 

What would you do differently? Run a Fire Gamin instead of all 3 Metals? I like the Fire Starter, but i don't know where to fit in the 7 points, because he's not that great at removing enemy models either. If anything, I'd remove the Faux child and a gamin and put the firestarter in. 

Kaeris
Firestarter
Gunsmith
Johan
Metal Gamin
Fire Gamin

Personally, and I know I differ from a lot of people, I don't like metal Gamin. They don't do enough for me to make them a pick. Against anything that doesn't have constructs, they are slow. Yes, they are tough to get rid of, and so can be useful for turf war, or maybe Reconnotre, but in such a small game, they are too niche. As they are struggling to actually get to the area in time.

Even if I did rate them highly, they are very much focused in 1 area, and so in such a small game, I would worry about the ability to get enough use out of 3 of them. 

 

 

Metal Gamin are amazing... Especially if you're running Grab and Drop with Kaeris.

[Adran]

Why does Grab and Drop improve them? 

Is it just because you can make them fly? because Flight is very board specific to its use. 

[Coge]

I used the list : 

Kaeris , g&b blingding flame
gunsmith
myranda
johan
child
moleman
fire gamin

lost the final match against sonia criid 6-7 but had success against other crews. total 3 matches. 2nd out of 6 ppl isnt much but still good. 
ty for help. 

[mythicFOX]

I used the list : 

Kaeris , g&b blingding flame
gunsmith
myranda
johan
child
moleman
fire gamin

lost the final match against sonia criid 6-7 but had success against other crews. total 3 matches. 2nd out of 6 ppl isnt much but still good. 
ty for help. 

Good to hear, how did you find the list to play? Did you enjoy it? If you were going to do it again what would you change?

Edited November 2, 2015 by mythicFOX

[Coge]

I think the list was very sufficient, in terms of model number/ running around/killing etc. 
last game against sonia criid i made some mistakes and took some blast. got magic reflected to kaeris etc. otherwise i think it has everything. 

i wasnt sure firestarter / gunsmith change. but gunsmith give a very good dmg boost still can run objectives + hard to kill is nice  

[madaxeman]

OK, so ... set them on fire, give them flight which "ignores all models" ... dos that mean anything that is flying can fly over enemy models engagement zones without taking disengaging strikes?

[Adran]

If you start in engagement, you will still need to make a disengaging strike to take a walk action. (The disengaging strike happens before the movement, and its only during movement that you ignore enemy models)

If you don't start in engagement, you won't need to make a disengaging strike just passing through an engagement during that walk. Flight doesn't matter for this, it allows you to walk striaght through a model as if it wasn't there. 

[madaxeman]

If you start in engagement, you will still need to make a disengaging strike to take a walk action. (The disengaging strike happens before the movement, and its only during movement that you ignore enemy models)

If you don't start in engagement, you won't need to make a disengaging strike just passing through an engagement during that walk. Flight doesn't matter for this, it allows you to walk striaght through a model as if it wasn't there. 

That's what I thought, but it was hard to find in the rules last night. So what about a second walk (or 'flight') action?

[Adran]

doing a double walk actually is just doing 2 walk actions. You need to complete one before you start the next. A lot of the time people measure the double walk to save time, but if you think that they will end in engagement, do it properly. 

(Page 48 of the small rules)

Edited November 11, 2015 by Adran
added reference for disengaging

[Mr.Cat]

Hey guys, i've read many of the posts in this thread, but still have some questions:

1- Is Kaeris competitive? Because in her card i can't see damage output, so does she work solely arround fire...? I see her like the Brewmaster in some aspects.

2- What does her crew do when you're stacking Burning condition (for example +4 Burning after a few combos) and the enemy removes that condition? You've spent many AP on that strategy and then you're sold...well in fact you've WASTED those AP. So am i wrong or you must focus the condition removal miniature?

I'll surely come up with more questions, but for the moment i can't remember them  

[angyi]

1. She's a very mobile support master, who also secures VPs, hunts down scheme runners and roasts opposing minions. Is she competitive, absolutely. Is her damage output stellar, not quite.

2. She has her ways to capitalize on burning before her opponent would come to remove it. On the other hand, removing 1-2 burning from any models other than key pieces is easily your AP wasted, not Kaeris'.

[mythicFOX]

1- Is Kaeris competitive? Because in her card i can't see damage output, so does she work solely arround fire...? I see her like the Brewmaster in some aspects.

2- What does her crew do when you're stacking Burning condition (for example +4 Burning after a few combos) and the enemy removes that condition? You've spent many AP on that strategy and then you're sold...well in fact you've WASTED those AP. So am i wrong or you must focus the condition removal miniature?

1) I've done well with her in competitive play, I went 5-0 with her at a tournament last summer.  That being said she's not as powerful as some other options, you need to work to get the best out of her. It's important to note she's a support master more than she is a combat master.

2) You need to be mindful of condition removal. I always ask opponents if they have any in their crews during deployment. Working around burning removal and the like is important for getting the best out of Kaeris.

Keep the questions coming.

[Sordid Strumpet]

What would you say makes her more of a support master than a combat one? The healing/scheme placement upgrades? 

Up until now, in my mind she was pretty evenly split between support and offense - being able to set things rather thoroughly on fire, and therefore not relying on damage flips to cause damage seems very powerful in certain match ups, especially VS Rezers for example. 

And with the fire starter/Malifaux Child, she can do some serious damage to targers already on fire as well.

I've only used her a few times, so I'd like to hear your thoughts  

[mythicFOX]

From standing her damage output is too low for that; Flaming Halo, Immolate, Immolate, is going to do 12 damage on a good activation, and require most of your hand to do that.  Compare that to a combat master who will often output 12 damage from three weak hits of their weapon.

It's also important to understand that one point of burning is a bit less than one point of damage. This is due to it's ease of removal and the timing of it's translation to damage.

That is not to say she can't kill. In the right circumstances she's lethal.  There's no one better to kill a rider with.

Her most powerful effects are more related to movement and placement, card draw and scheme markers. So she's better in support than she is directly in combat.

All IMO.

 

[angyi]

In my experience Kaeris is a support style master because my results are better with her whenever I use her support style

Joke aside, her damage dealing ability is impressive, given that you've chosen the right target. (She kills a Rider dead, is that beautiful or what?) However her AP is often times better used on all the stuff mythicFOX has just mentioned, and keeping her mobile is essential, which also costs AP.

Kaeris knocks off scheme runners and moderate SS minions no problem, or puts the first/final 2-3 wounds in multiple targets. But that doesn't make her an offensive master in the way in which we talk about combat specialists. On the other hand, her support abilities make your crew pretty offensive, so she's an offensive master if that's what you mean.

I think people who consider her a mediocre master probably make the mistake rushing her forward pew-pew, then watch her wounds running out faster than the wounds of the twin Teddies she's facing. But no-one said she was a flying LadyJ with a flamethrower. She's a skirmisher who clears away annoyance in her minions' path, while she plays all kinds of fiery tricks to make them move/hit/scheme/heal/flip/etc. better.

[angyi]

For a preliminary remark, I'm not the most experienced Kaeris player, having only 7 competitive matches under my belt (not counting friendlies and unfinished casual games). The reason I want to share my limited experience is because I have very promising, still very lukewarm results with Kaeris: I went undefeated for all 7 of my tournament matches (hooray), but I only won 3 and tied the remaining 4 (yuck).

I played the same list every time, with very few modifications if any:

Kaeris (7SS)
- Purifying Flame OR Grab&Drop
- Blinding Flame OR Seize the Day
The Firestarter
The Captain
Cassandra
- Practiced Production
Johan
Mechanical Rider

This is the basic setup that I modify a little if need be: it's generally the upgrades, because Reconnoiter and Interference are the only strategies where I don't feel comfortable with six models and the extra crippled Gamin after turn 2. The idea is that I don't like the straightforward approach with Kaeris: I think she's an excellent denial master with much potential to explore, and I already have Ramos and Mei Feng anyway if I feel like playing the armoured M&SU steamroller.

What do we have with this setup. We have:
- six pretty survivable models
- four SS users with no apparent reason to use SS for other than damage prevention
- two sources of condition removal
- two (three) sources of pushing friendlies and enemies around
- pyre markers and wind wall markers
- four fast-moving schemers, not counting the extra scheme marker from PP
- two relic hammers and a variety of less impressive but still very sharp weapons
- ranged and Ca attacks
- lots of burning
- lots of healing (potentially)
- summoning

I think this is an excellent toolbox to give anybody a hard nut to crack, while scoring loads of VPs each game. However, I only had one match where I tabled my opponent. In the rest of the cases, I was glad that the game ended in turn 5. I have a distant feeling that something _little_ is missing from my build to make it shine, but I simply can't figure it out.

So my question: does anyone play with similar lists? What's your experence, is catch-me-if-you-can a rewarding direction of Kaeris builds, or is it only for mr.Drawcula (me)? Do you achieve most of your wins with Gunsmiths, Joss and Howard etc, or do you experience with something different?

Thanks for your insightful ideas in advance!

[Sordid Strumpet]

I don't see anything inherently wrong with that list other than the fact that in turns 1 and 2 you'll be very far behind in activation control until the rider starts summoning. And you're sort of a bit low on ranged damage output.

[angyi]

I don't see anything inherently wrong with that list other than the fact that in turns 1 and 2 you'll be very far behind in activation control until the rider starts summoning. And you're sort of a bit low on ranged damage output.

So that's my problem: I don't see anything inherently wrong either, but I'm really struggling to win. Activation control is no real issue in turn 1, and I can survive turn 2 too with the proper setup of defense (model placement in turn 1, pyre/wind walls in turn 2, etc.) But probably you're right, ranged may well be a problem. What would you change to gain exrta ranged damage? Somehow I feel that I need every model in my list, so I really need the feedback from an external point of view    

[Sordid Strumpet]

Maybe a battle report or two would help, or a summary? Especially of the games where you felt you didn't do so well. A play by play report probably isn't necessary, just an overview and what part of your plans worked and what didn't.

 

when you drew the games, what was the problem? Was it a high point draw where you both got 8-10 points? If so, you may have a problem with scheme denial

was it a low point draw? If so, you might not have enough dedicated mobile scheme runners.

of course it really depends on the scheme pool.

Ranged damage, especialle 12+ inches is great because of its flexibility. You can apply it where needed, but you have that in Kaeris - set things on fire, and then she can burn them at will.

I honestly don't see that much use for the captain. Your list is fairly mobile with Kaeris, the rider and Cassandra in it so his push isn't crucial. 

I think once we have figured out what you are struggling with in your games, he should be the first to get switched out.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Sordid Strumpet

[mythicFOX]

As sordid has said it's difficult to diagnose an issue without specifics beyond the list. That said looking at your list I see two key issues;

1) Nothing here can stand in a fight with the enemy and take a hit.  It's OK playing avoidance, but with four of the ten strategies requiring you to leave models in specific places you'll struggle there (Turf War, Extraction, Squatters Rights, and Guard the Stash).

2) You don't have enough models.  Even with the Mech Rider as a means not get too far behind you're still starting off at a real disadvantage. As you say Reconnoitre and Interference will almost be non-starters.

So I'd say you're behind in 6/10 strategies before you start.  If you give us some more detail along the lines Sordid asked for I'm sure we can help more.

 

[angyi]

Thanks guys! The games went like:

- Leveticus w/ Ashes&Dust, Alice, Lazarus etc. – Guard the Stash (draw)
- Mei Feng TT balanced melee/shooting list – Interference (draw)
- Ironsides w/ gunsmiths and various HPM clients – Extraction (win)
- McMourning classic poison madness – Reckoning (draw)
- Ophelia shooty – Reckoning (win)
- Ophelia swarm – Extraction (draw)
- McCabe TT w/ guild gunline – Collect the Bounty (win)

The Leveticus game was a very hard one (4-4), but I usually scored lots of VPs so that's no problem. It seems that I also gave hell of a lot of VPs to the opponent, which is probably because of the low model count.

I generally played to evade heavy hitters and picked easier targets in a hit&run style, but the lack of standing power is a problem for sure. E.g. I successfully reduced Gracie to one wound, then the damned pig survived Johan's charge, disrupting my whole plan for the turn. Bad luck, but these things happen, and good lists should immediately switch to plan B in such cases, never collapse and fight to survive, like my magnificent six did.

I think the biggest issue is that I'm often forced to play a reactive game, and my list is good at that, but it lacks the power to go from the defensive to the offensive, should the opportunity arise. I understand that I need more attack vectors (melee and ranged alike), and I need extra activations. But I have no idea how to cut across the list, not to end the process with something like Kaeris/Joss/Howard/EF/ Rail Workers/Gunsmith/Gamin. Those are good models, but I think Ramos or Mei play the armoured division better. And now I want to "unlock" Kaeris, I mean I want to find a set-up that's unique enough to have her in my case.

[Sordid Strumpet]

I generally played to evade heavy hitters and picked easier targets in a hit&run style, but the lack of standing power is a problem for sure. E.g. I successfully reduced Gracie to one wound, then the damned pig survived Johan's charge, disrupting my whole plan for the turn. Bad luck, but these things happen, and good lists should immediately switch to plan B in such cases, never collapse and fight to survive, like my magnificent six did.

That's a problem I think. If all you ever do is evade their heavy hitters, you give up a lot of board control because they can go where they want and your only option is to go away.

All the games you've drawn seem to be focused on removing your opponent's models that have to be in a specific place, like guard the stash. But you seem to have no problem scoring in stuff like collect the bounty, and reckoning where it doesn't really matter where you kill your opponent (and for reckoning you can kill their squishy stuff), suggesting you've got the mobility to hit squishy stuff when you need it, but when your opponent wants to be somewhere, like in guard the stash, there isn't much you can do about it.

That may be a play style issue, but I do think you have very little real hitting power to make a point where and when you need to, if that makes sense. Even if you stacked burning sky high on something with Kaeris, it won't die until the end of the turn, so it's a rather delayed way of getting things killed.

And in my experience The Captain, while having some decent damage potential, spends much more time wind blasting stuff around than actually whacking people with his hammer while Johan uses his AP for condition removal and healing, so you've got two beat sticks that are rather confused about their roles, and tend to spend at least half their AP doing things that aren't carving people up, so your damage output is necessarily limited.

I'd use a less confused beater than the captain. Coryphee can be fantastic if Kaeris gives them flight and automatically makes them drop scheme markers. And they know how to do one thing, and one thing only - slice things into teeny tiny little pieces.

[angyi]

you've got two beat sticks that are rather confused about their roles

That's what I was looking for, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Thanks!

[Spike0738]

List I've really enjoyed lately... My upgrades kinda range depending on what schemes i get, but i've been running G&D pretty heavily. 

Kaeris
Firestarter
Johan 
Gunsmith
Mech Rider or Rail Golem
Fire Gamin or Metal Gamin
Rail Worker or Union Miner

I really like the Rail Worker or Union Miner to kinda add utility or dmg, depending on my needs with Kaeris. Depending on my squad, I could take away the Gamin and use another 5ss guy, but I like having a Gamin for the range, and not having to summon them if a scheme like Reckoning shows up. 

I've tried to use Acolyte, instead of the Gunsmith, but it's hard to get much out of their pulls and such with the mobility of the list. 
 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Spike0738

[Sordid Strumpet]

you've got two beat sticks that are rather confused about their roles

That's what I was looking for, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Thanks!

glad to help, let us know how you go with some changes