Clear intent Vs Clear Raw (obedient Wretch)

[The Godlyness]

(1) Tossed Rat (Sh 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: 6): Target suffers 1/2/4 damage.

Stink of Death: After damaging, if the target is still in play, summon a Malifaux Rat into base contact with the target.

We are going to focus on the Trigger.

Now it is CLEARLY intended that if the Wretch kills the model that no rat would be summoned.

BUT

"After Damaging" Triggers are CLEARLY resolved before the model is removed. so the model is still in play when this trigger happens.

So RAI no rat is spawned if the model is killed or otherwise removed from play. but RAW if you get the trigger you can always summon a rat.

Now i am going to play this as intended but i just wanted to Show something that has basis in the rules and if someone wanted to argue it i would agree with them but then tell them that they are not getting a rat from the rat they killed. cause yeah that be dumb

[rgarbonzo]

No different than getting a (1) actions from a dead model. The intent is that after you do damage you get a rat. If the damage kills said model, the rat still appears. Same thing with Lenny and his Whacked Piglet. If the weak damage of 1  kills a model, a Piglet still appears. There has been enough discussion about after damaging effects that if a model would be killed, I believe that the caveat would be inserted into the action. 

[Ausplosions]

No different than getting a (1) actions from a dead model. The intent is that after you do damage you get a rat. If the damage kills said model, the rat still appears. Same thing with Lenny and his Whacked Piglet. If the weak damage of 1 kills a model, a Piglet still appears. There has been enough discussion about after damaging effects that if a model would be killed, I believe that the caveat would be inserted into the action.

This is definitely an Errata case. Because there is no way this is meant to be played like this.

[rgarbonzo]

Well we are in the window for next month, we shall see what it brings though this is the precedent set by Collodi since it is an action causing an action it was covered in the relevant thread, not that this is a new thing at all since it existed since Wave 1 closed with Lenny.

 

 

 

JUSTIN

• 

Posted 26 February 2014 - 03:55 PM

#60 

Pg. 32 of the big rulebook:

 

"After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage."

 

So, when does Collodi's trigger happen?

 

A: After damaging, but before the model is removed. This would mean the model could perform an action controlled by Collodi.

 

[The Godlyness]

This is definitely an Errata case. Because there is no way this is meant to be played like this.

Agreed that is why I brought it up. Collodi sure does his thing does not need to be changed. But this trigger has wording that wants it to work but falls short.

Stink of death: After Damaging summon a malifaux rat into base contact with the target. Unless the target has been reduced to 0 (or fewer) wounds.

This is the only way I see this trigger working as intended.

[Bahoola]

A little fast side-track here.

Can you be reduced to blow 0 wounds, have they changed that from 1,5? Recalling the Slow to die healing on shilling and librarian.

[rgarbonzo]

Ah I see it now, I read it and interpreted it like Lenny's trigger which it clearly isn't. So in this instance I would say that a rat would not be summoned though I would also say that Lenny would due to relevant distinction in wording.

 

Wretch

 Stink of Death: After damaging, if the target is still in play, summon a Malifaux Rat into base contact with the target.

 

Lenny

Huh, It Survived: After dealing weak damage, summon a Piglet into base contact with the target. The Piglet immediately suffers a 1/2/4 damage flip that cannot be cheated. 

[The Godlyness]

Ah I see it now, I read it and interpreted it like Lenny's trigger which it clearly isn't. So in this instance I would say that a rat would not be summoned though I would also say that Lenny would due to relevant distinction in wording.

 

Wretch

 Stink of Death: After damaging, if the target is still in play, summon a Malifaux Rat into base contact with the target.

 

Lenny

Huh, It Survived: After dealing weak damage, summon a Piglet into base contact with the target. The Piglet immediately suffers a 1/2/4 damage flip that cannot be cheated.

That's the point it's CLEARLY intended that a rat should not be summoned if the target is killed or saced or whatever. But due to the timing Raw the model is not removed till after the trigger is resolved. So it is still in play. Hence why me and ausplosions agree that this needs an errata.

[HalcyonSeraph]

Me three on errata - as written it literally will never not trigger on a crow, at which point the "if the model is still in play" clause does nothing at all and is just wasted ink. 

[dgraz]

Hence why me and ausplosions agree that this needs an errata.

It is truly the end of times.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Oh, interesting! So it checks whether the model is still in play or not before the model would disappear. Yeah, I'd say no rat. Honestly, I doubt many players would even notice the timing subtleties here, but I see what you're saying.

[Nagash1959]

Hopefully this is one of the things that will be adjusted before Wyrd hits the 3' big red "Print" button (ominous lightning available with button). The occasional wording issue can arise even with everyone watching. Like Hateful Darkblack said, most people playing it likely didn't even notice it and just instinctively played it correctly.

[The Godlyness]

I get very very bored waiting to pick up freight so I just comb though wave 2 files trying to find random interactions and combos. And in some cases timing issues. But this stood out like a sore thumb to since I argued the Heck out of Collodi making a dead thing dance. But rules are written and I abide lol. If a new player read the rules then took this trigger as is he would be justifiably right in saying he gets a rat. But it is not supposed to work that way. So yeah.

[Justin]

Fixed.

[The Godlyness]

And this is why We love you.

[rgarbonzo]

Now don't go too far! Love is a bit strong...

[PraetorDragoon]

Fixed.

 

Is this included in next erreta, or will it see actual print?

[Cats Laughing]

Is this included in next erreta, or will it see actual print?

 

Given that we're discussing a Wave 2 model, it will likely be fixed in the wave 2 arsenal decks, though it might hit an errata before then since the PDFs are "official".  Alternatively the PDFs might just get updated.