LeperColony

Flat text is going to give this question an inflection I do not intend, so please understand absolutely no stark is meant. But did you actually read any of the attached text files? I'm asking not because the specific abilities are important (they're not), but because if you did, you'd see they are master upgrades in a somewhat similar sense to 2E. Yes, some of them have abilities that have wider applications, but in the main, they aren't meant to simply make every model in a keyword better in the same way. I think rather it's a recognition that the problem area is not solvable in the commonly understood manner. Absolute balance is impossible, there will always be overtuned models. And when 3E reaches a point of sufficient meta maturity that those models and masters are known, we may end up in the same boat as 2nd, where a small range of masters dominate with super friend crews. So instead, it attempts to complicate the calculation by adding an opportunity cost to going OOK/Versatile. If the OOK/Versatile model is still better, you'd likely still see it instead of the master upgrade. As I mentioned, this is particularly likely among the strongest keywords, for which the proposed master upgrades are weakest (and so the opportunity cost is lowest). The first part of your analysis is correct, and in fact arguably the point. It adds an opportunity cost to choosing the "always take" model, which may make it not always take. Isn't that a good thing? The second part of your analysis is not correct, or at least if it is correct, it's not a consequence of this concept, but on model curves generally. Since Malifaux, like almost any game, operates on what is fundamentally a mathematical framework, there probably is one (or a small subset) of ideal crews for a given faction in a given pool. But since people are not really capable calculation to that degree, what we really see is in the main, keyword-centric crews with a few corner case models or known "always take" type highly overtuned pieces. Or, in the other alternative, crews with a smaller core of keyword models and more Versatile/OOKs. In other words, right now there's no cost to taking as many OOK as you want, and yet we don't see many crews of entirely OOK models. And those crews that do pick a lot of versatiles/OOKs are only likely to look at more keyword models as an option if either the keyword models improve, the OOKs/Versatiles are nerfed, or there's some other benefit to keyword hires. So even if the dichotomy you describe existed, and even if it were entirely the fault of a concept like proposed in the original post, it would likely not change hiring practices much in this regard. Again, I ask this with no snark. Did you actually read any of the files? They're not crew-wide buffs, they are master upgrades. Some of which may have wider implications, most don't. Why would we assume this? They could be nerfed or buffed like anything else. But what they have, that other things we can balance don't, is a built in opportunity cost.

I've only played her a few times, and not since the nerf, so I can't speak with any authority. But one thing I can say, and I've seen it expressed by others as well, is that I struggled to get good value out of Philip and the Nanny. I'm not saying the model is bad, but it was challenging for me to use.

Yeah, this isn't an original mechanic by any stretch of the imagination. Warmahordes has extra theme points too. One issue I did encounter concerns stronger keywords. People like Som'er I tried to give much less impressive upgrades. Makes sense at first. But then the opportunity cost for them to hire OOK/Versatiles is much less. Of course, my goal isn't to eliminate OOK/Versatile hiring. But rather, it's to try and fight against "always take" type models, or to provide a thematic alternative to super friends lists.

Overall, Malifaux is a decently balanced game, especially since it is so asymmetric. But, there are a few issues, particularly with over the curve models. Of course, OP models are inevitable, but the fixes are less apparent. If you nerf a keyword model, you may solve the “always take OOK” issue, but then you might hurt what was otherwise a mediocre keyword. If you nerf a versatile, it may just never see play. Model adjustments are necessary, but they are also difficult because there are so many interactions in Malifaux. Ultimately, as this is a game with a defined structure, it can be mathed out to a certain extent, and we might get to a point where 3E resembles 2E. All the best models have been identified, there’s only a small range of masters, and they mostly run superfriends. IMO, that would be bad for the game. My suggestion would be to create a special Master upgrade for each keyword, that you get for free if every model in your crew shares a keyword with your leader. There’s no other way to get this upgrade. Now, removing master upgrades was a good change from 2E to 3E. So why would I want to reintroduce them? Three reasons: 1. These upgrades can be used to “balance” the keywords without changing a whole host of models and requiring new cards. Stronger keywords with a lot of synergy can get weaker upgrades, and weaker keywords can get stronger ones. 2. The need to nerf overtuned versatiles/OOK is decreased if the opportunity cost of hiring one is not getting the free master upgrade. 3. If the master upgrade is over/under tuned, it can be fixed singularly, which is a lot easier than redoing a whole keyword. Of course, there’s virtually no chance this would happen. But I offer this thought experiment as one possible way to address “always take” models that we tend to see very often, even OOK (looking at you Brin). I’ve included some sample upgrades for every keyword. Dual faction keywords got different upgrades depending on the faction you declare. I won’t pretend these are good ideas or balanced, they’re just what popped into my head. arcanist.txt bayou.txt guild.txt Neverborn.txt outcasts.txt ressers.txt TT.txt

Yeah, I could see how the word "closed" could lead to some ambiguity.

Closed and over aren't the same thing. I never said they stopped playtesting. Wyrd re-opened the playtest with a public call for participants. That doesn't mean absent such a call playtesting would have stopped, or did stop. But it does mean that they were sufficiently concerned about the response to want more eyes on the ES materials. EDIT: Technically, I suppose, it's possible the playtest was always "open" in that people could contact Wyrd and be added. I don't know about that, but I do know that the call for new testers came because of the community's response to Winston. And even if it were "open" the whole time, certainly that wasn't public knowledge or much advertised.

Not only am I not comparing him to Hooded Riders or Desperate Mercenaries or whatever else, I specifically said any such comparison would be meaningless like two posts up. EDIT: Turns out it was three (of my) posts ago. While I was looking at him and BBB/Hannah/MT more holistically than just Arcane Reservoir, even if we do it just by looking at AR, we still see a curve with BBB/MT at the top and Hannah at the bottom. And where is Winston on this curve? Right. The top. But of course, just looking at AR without the rest of the model is meaningless. Because then the cheapest, safest AR is the best, regardless of any other concern. Moleman with MT is 6 stone AR and can bury and stay safe forever (except in a few match ups). That makes Moleman with MT is better than Winston? I don't think so... --- The reality is no matter how you slice it, Winston, when viewed either just in meaningless AR-only terms, or in context with similar models, is significantly above the curve. He needs changes, and that need was clear enough to Wyrd that they re-opened playtesting after the response to his reveal.

I think if he were 10 stones, he'd be fine. Even at 11, I've seen on occasion.

The other models you are saying he is equal to are among the best models in the game. When you make new models, you should aim to make them equal to the average models in the game. When your reference point for new models are the best current things, you get power creep. Or, in other words, Hannah is a better reference point for a potential Winston than BBB/MT.

Maybe something metallic? I know not typical for webs, but any metal color goes well with black, and I'd think any single uniform color might clash with some models since you said they'd have unique pastels.

I agree. Without AR, he's a good 8 stone support model with sustain, top of deck sculpting, movement tricks, heals, and (though you probably don't want him in melee) an attack that gives slow and can guarantee triggers (either with his ability or stones, since he's a henchman). With AR, he seems like almost an auto pick in or out of keyword, into practically (if not literally) any strat/scheme pool.

Except that you are. Your entire post was arguing that Winston isn't OP because BBB and MT are comparable, and that Hannah may be underpowered. The mere fact that you're not balancing Winston against all models in all roles is meaningless. Malifaux is all about context, so we have to talk about Winston vis-a-vis models with similar roles and capabilities. Otherwise we could say he's balanced because he can't kill as much as Rusty Alyce. Well, duh. But that's not the point. That's your statement. And the context, again, is that Winston is fine because BBB and MT exist. That's called balancing against the top. Unless you believe BBB and MT aren't above the curve. If you think those are middle curve models/upgrades, then you're wrong, but you'd at least not be balancing against the top. I really just grabbed what seemed to be your main argument, but perhaps you can tell me how omitting these clearly critical sentences changes your conclusion that it's more likely Hannah is underpowered than Winston is OP? EDIT: I'd add that Wyrd themselves provided pretty good evidence that Winston was problematic, since the hue and cry against him is what prompted them to re-open playtesting. So, you know, maybe there's something to it after all.

Big Brain Brin is one of the best models in the game. Magical Training is one of the best "generalist" upgrades in the game, if not the best. You don't balance new material by comparing it to the top of the curve and saying "see, it might not be better than that!" Balancing against the top is how you get power creep. Instead, you should balance against the middle. And yes, of course, some things are going to end up overtuned. But if you can see in development that you're making a Brin/MT level model, that should give you pause. Also, remember, there's presumably six more keywords coming to Explorer's Society (assuming they have the same number of keywords as other factions). What are the odds that Winston is the best model in the entire faction? Probably not great, given everything else that remains unknown.

Amen, brother. See my sig line.

I have to qualify my opinion by saying I've never played him (or Lynch), so this is just off viewing the card. To me, he seems decent for eight stones. 2" engage is nice, the ability to move models and give Brilliance is ok, and his I quite like. It also appears to combo well with Tanner's. 5/5 and 8 health for eight stones does seem subpar, but Hard to Kill is really nice, especially if you bring in some heals. Black Blood and Bodyguard are a bit unfortunate to have on one model. Is he worth eight? Eh, maybe. But is it worth eight to buy him when you could get Fuhatsu or a Samurai for nine, Emissary for 10, Yasunori for 11? That seems unclear to me. If I were facing Ressers or Neverborn, I think Ruthless would push him over the edge. But against the other factions? Probably would rather spend a few more stones for one of the other options.

That's why I'm asking exactly how binding "if able" is. When you flip the RJ, you are "able" to choose a crow and declare the trigger.

Right, good point! Does that mean if you flip the Red Joker you have to choose the crow? What does "if able" mean? Because you able to do so if you get the Red Joker, but I don't think that means you'd be forced to pick a crow from it? The thing is, clearly this trigger has an effect that reaches game states "before" it would itself exist. Triggers don't do anything until they are declared, but triggers that must be declared create an effect or obligation prior to their own existence. But would that also mean a player would be obligated to select the crow from the RJ?

First, between cheating or, if you know you can't cheat, paying 1 health for stones (or stoning for suits) it seems rather rare where it'll just happen. But also, the timing on it is immediately. This means you can declare it even if you're losing. So if you can't win, but you have a low crow? Get a soul stone. Sure, it ends your activation, but if it's already your last action, then it just turns a failure into a stone.

I'll take static poses if it makes assembly easier.

Summoning is very difficult to balance in Malifaux. Adding models is a powerful mechanic, and pass tokens are not really a sufficient answer (though they are better than nothing). Maybe if pass tokens had more uses, then they may close the gap some.

Yeah, I think Outcast upgrades are the worst in the game by a noticeable margin. I know some guild players think their faction has a fair claim to the title, but I don't think it's even close. That being said, I think Wanted Criminal could be useful for Parker.

I don't think I agree. Pass tokens allow you to shift when the uncontested activations occur, but they don't reduce the number of uncontested activations. Another model does.

If you're cheating in , then you're not netting four cards. But still, I can see the utility, I'm just not sure it's worth the stones to me.

I personally wouldn't pay the two stones for that, but it's a neat move.

If you're playing so heavily into the card draw on Criminal, I think maybe you should find a way to give it to Monty. That way he can heal Jack if needs be. Marlena can't heal instead of draw.