EntrepeNinja

For reference- on top of all these awesome things. One of the things I'm often excited about exploring is a second 0 action held by the master. So: Brewmaster: Drinking Contest- You can make a second bubble, though it doesn't effect people outside the range of another round, so it really only multiplies the difficulty of a model within both auras, not allowing you to setup a drinking contest down field. Mei Feng: She's got nothin'.... (Sad Trombone). Lucas: He can use the "Take This" action to pass a model that's been passed to him and also still give out the push. Lynch: He can use the Mulligan. His is different due to the discard stipulation- anything he would discard gets shuffled in instead. Definitely to curb people trying to discard three aces, draw three cards, and get the three aces back. Yan Lo: He can attach ascendance upgrades with the help of Chiaki or something? He can definitely Instill Youth. Shen Long: He can take a bunch of awesome actions. With words on the river, he can turn some conditions into cards. He can take mastery to get 2 of the conditions on the chart. He can use Monk of Many Styles to swap his own Limited upgrade. Misaki: Likely has a 0 action. But I don't have her card in front of me... I guess Lynch is really the only one I'm super stoked about. And Shen Long, but that's what he was sorta tooled for. Still- worth a mention! A model inside two Drinking Contest bubbles, with a Tannen about? You are not going to be able to do anything. ENinja

And with Obey and Pick your Poison at your disposal, you can make a samurai double up on attacks. All without fear of killin' themselves. And Wesley can use PyP as well- so you don't even have to waste Brewmaster's AP doing it. Eninja

Easy: Protect Territory, or (Depending on crew) Plant Explosives. Prot is such an auto include for so many that I've started including some anti scheme tech to try and thwart. Given some activation control, and some sort of scheme generation tech, this can get pretty silly. Be it luring a bunch of things to get them within range of one marker, or pitching a bunch of markers everywhere, or placing one somewhere that is just ideal... There was a while where I would make it challenging by forcing myself to go for 3 points scored on turn one. Hard- Outflank. So many strats/schemes have to deal with being a specific place, and usually that's Near your oppoenents deployment zone, or in the center, or basically far away from the table edge. And if you want full points you have to announce. And if you announce, it only takes one model saved to thwart it. I think I've taken it once. Honorable Mention: Take Prisoner- I think this one is potentially very hard, but it's such a wild card. It's like the spanish inquisition. ENinja

They can tell you don't like them. Just like anything in the game- you get what you pay for. They've got a decent Sh, decent flexibility with their ability to discard cards for suits, and their 2 action that can heal and... But they're only 4 stones, and not a ton of wounds left in the wind, they fold like paper.

You could also look at a Yamaziko. Cheap and effective, with blasts and a good range. Can engage a lot of gremlin stopping shooting and charges. Also- if you decide it's time to make a run on the big man, a nimble, focus hit will make it count, as opposed to a charge which can be squeeled away from. ENinja

I started digging into masters I had and wanted to play in ten thunders, mostly because there was an overwhelming number of people saying things like, "Mei only works in Arcanists" or "Guest faction only. Works best infiltrated" etc etc. What I've sort of come up with is a lot of the dual factions have a couple ways of playing, and the faction helps strengthen one or the other. For instance. Lynch in Neverborn is often about brilliance and card draw. Lynch in thunders for me is all about efficiency in use of "Ace in the Hole". The number of models that get crazy 0 actions with discards, or benefit from defensive in strange ways makes his ability to discard the same card over and over again amazing. Ten thunders brother for instance. An ace turns them to df 7 with a positive twist. An ace of Rams gives them a free ability to draw and discard. Another ace on top of that, and they can just get a free card draw. Or if they're wounded, some free healing. Wastrels love discarding cards for suits. The Lone Swordsman can discard two cards for reactivate. If they're both aces, then all you gotta do is kill the model. The same is said for Mei- her list of available constructs is lessened in Thunders, though not depleted. She can port over some of the headliners (Rail Golem and Metal Gamin), her native ones aren't too shabby either (Komainu). But the number of things that can hand out fire in the thunders gets nutty. Kamaitachi. Monks of high river. Dawn Serpent. Komainu. Obsidian Oni (Who can also drop scrap, iirc). I think her fire game is stronger in Thunders than it is in Arcanists. ENinja

I'd bet in the opposite way- I think they'll introduce a model that can bring them together with additional synergy- An oni leader/henchman style model.

If not theme, I was looking forward to rocking a Mei list with some Obsidians, and some Komainu (who aren't oni, but are cool). Also, Jorogumo is coming in wave three, so there could be something to replace Dawn Serpent with. ENinja

Right, but you can't take an austringer with Shenlong. McCabe gets the austringers, and he cares less about models with 0 actions. I'm picking Shenlong up. I've just bought Katanaka(nakanakanaka) Snipers, and am excited to throw them around a bit. Archers are still high on my list, specifically because I have a soft spot for models that can shoot into engagements, and I like Toshiro and Kang who are both great carriers of the blot the sky upgrade. ENinja

While this is true, don't forget the reading on it is "When an ace, would be placed... during another friendly model's activation". So, while having them to drop vs. decapitate, or assassinate or any of those would still be helpful, you won't be seeing them come back at the end of the activation. ENinja

Eh. Who needs a 0 focus when you bring scheme utility and ranged, LOS free discard tech? ENinja

Yeah, most of my lists featured at least a hunter. Many featured either the judge or fransico or both. Those are all some tough customers, who are good at ranged, and great in melee. So, when I'm protecting my half of the board, I don't have to overextend to push or push out too far to remain effective, and also I can counter a charge extremely well. ENinja

Whelp. Six games played. 4 with Dita, 2 with Sonnia. 2 Wins with sonnia, 2 wins, a tie, and a loss with Dita. I enjoyed all the games. Sonnia's big things were her ability to use crappy cards to great effect. Flame walls were pretty cool, but Violation of Magic Summons were rad, and "Discard aaaand now I'm at CA9" was really cool. Crappy hands mean nothing when you're at a +9 starting value! Dita was plenty flexible, and I didn't just run around Obeying which is how I ended up playing a lot in my first two games. That being said, they were some pretty sweet matchups for me- Tara, Kirai, and Leveticus- three masters who's crews rely on incorporeal or armor to stay standing. I ran a lot of Hunters, and some austringers, and Nino's spotter and a family heavy crew allowed me to beat one of the better players there. And then was totally smashed by one of the other better players there trying to use the same technique. I didn't adapt well enough to the new challenge. All in all, I think I can understand the draw. I still think in the last Dita game I played, I would have been really happy with McMourning. But such is the actual challenge to the game- Knowing not just how to play all the masters..... ... But when. (Mic Drop) ENinja

Buy him. Or summon him. Every chance you get. Same thing. I really only brought it up to begin with because I thought it was such a quagmire of a RAW vs RAI, and there were definitions and examples on both sides that seemed reasonable. And with the community coming down on both sides of it, I'm still happy I brought it up. ENinja

Came up in a tournament last weekend: Perdita tries to shoot the Hanged inside 2". Hanged says she has to take a horror check, and it strips all immunities to horror. Perdita has Aura Ancestral which has an ability that allows her to "ignore all duels involved with targeting something". The question is: This doesn't actually give her an immunity to horror, it takes away her need to take any duel when targeting. T.O. Ruled in favor of Perdita, saying it gets around challenge, manipulative, and horror, so it's not a horror immunity that the hanged's aura would be stripping from her. Interested in if that's the way it should have worked. Were I a T.O. I wouldn't've known which way to rule- I'm glad I was a player in the example. Thoughts? ENinja

I can't believe noone has said High River Monks yet. 6 stones, good DF, great tarpits, fast, able to net more attacks on charge, ruthless, and able to hand out burning to increase Mei's damage on her claw attack. Not bad for six stones. Imo, Metal Gamin are going to be your low cost minions that can be jump points. Monks can be scheme runners and front line fighters, and if you're looking for some more durability, grab a low river. Kang and Toshiro are going to be your upper level beaters and buffers. Mei will likely be doing the midfield heavy lifting. I can't wait for Sparks and Mechanized Porkchops. That being said "Survivor"s didn't have foundry at the time of the final beta release. We'll see if thye pick it up in the live release.

@All: This has been an exciting and productive discussion! Thanks. @Ludvig I've done watchers before and that was a lot of fun. Essentially, I was facing a Levi crew with Sonnia, and I kept countering his waif placement with a watcher up high to try and threaten blocks. That was very cool and a lot of fun. But then a hunter came up and engaged Sonnia and I spent the rest of the game attacking with her sword. I killed the hunter, but man... Overall a really fun Sonnia game. @D_Acolyte You're right about missing master types- I even play a couple of them. I do like ice pillar Raspy a lot. And Brewie can be buff style with some of his theme models, but he does primarily control. I think I understand those two types better than the typical ranged master as well, but again, I default back to my me-centric buffing masters. The long melee concept is pretty cool, but there aren't a lot of models with 3" melee, save for guys with relic hammers, spears, or alligators. I'll keep that in mine when, though. Interesting bit of tech. As I said, I'll be doing some research this weekend and will certainly report back. ENinja

First off- I love that that was extremely constructive, and also not in the least hostile. There's a real difference between, "wut, she's so gud, ur dumb", and "try and break the convention and don't get to focused on theme crews." SO! I think a lot of what you said is clarifying something I was hoping to do anyways. My "melee masters" with tricks are the McMournings (who has a great melee presence, a ton of survivability, and a good selection of abilities that are there to help with scheme generation), and Mei Feng (who has crazy mobility given good circumstances, and can create a huge flurry of activity to bring the shock and awe). I think that Perdita's obey and family synergy are great- but needing a ton of mid-high masks or stones to be able to use obey could be achieved so much easier in a crew that's actually built for the obey (Like Hoffman, one of my other faves). I don't think I want anything for the ranged guys. Not me, personally, at least. I just think that the way my brain interacts with Malifaux is less strong at the ranged presence game. And I think what you're suggesting is what I've been trying to do. I challenged myself to play every master I had 5 times before I gave up on any of them. I'm going to an event end of this week and I'll be playing just Sonnia and Perdita. Partly because it's their games I have left, and partly because I want to force myself into this new role. As for swapping in some of the other playstyle models, that's one of my favorite things about this game. I love taking stripped down synergy crews, and playing a second crew in the ranks- Hoffman with a few good loop constructs, and then Sidir and Frank, the two man wrecking ball. I've played two or three games with each of them- and I had a really positive experience with Dita, but my Sonnia games have just left me wanting. Maybe I should get away from the burning crew entirely, and just let her be a bombadier. ENinja

I was looking at a Thunders Mei crew a while ago (when I was looking at jumping feet first into thunders. I haven't actually made it to TT Mei since.) I think my go-tos were things like the Komainu, and Toshiro with Command the Graves. You can use the totem to drop scrap, then have Toshi turn it into a Komainu, and you have a mobile rail walk point. A little gimicky and moving part reliant. But still cool none the less. I was also looking at the High River monks for the say reason people are saying Dawn Serpent- The ability to hand out burning on disengaging strikes is good. The ability to give out burning on successful melee attacks is also good. Being able to discard a crap card to get three attacks on a charge makes them pretty awesome, and the 0 makes them faster than people'd expect. Push 2, charge 6, ml1" Is a 9" threat range on a flurry. Pretty dope.

Important to note: If Sensei Yu puts up the Drinking Contest Aura, and the person taking the test falls outside the range of "(1) On The House", the duel is technically moot, as they can't take the action, and therefore (if my understanding is correct), may take their original action. Past that, yeah, I love the idea of sensei Yu. I may buy the box for the High Rivers and Yu, as I don't reallllyyy have a want to play Shenlong. (I'm sure if I got the box I would eventually play him and fall in love. ENinja

I would say, Brewie does a couple things well. (Past just drinking contest). He can be a force multiplier, either by using pick your poison on your own guys or going for an obey on an enemy. If they've got a low WP, and a good attack- that's a great chance to turn the tables. And he can paint a target extremely effectively. If you are able to, in 3 ap, get hangover off against a model you want dead, that may well be a turn well spent. And if you get if off once early, you've got a good chance of getting off again. Double negative flips against all things forever is nearly a death sentence- inside drinking contest, or not. Turf war should be great for brewie- if you use your models to push the turf models into the drinking contest zone, then tear them apart by the end of the turn you can deny fairly well. If it's super schemey take Fingers, and let him deny enemy schemes while also doing friendly scheme schemes. "You have line in the sand? Weird. Cause that looks like my protect territory..." Glad to hear Smoke Grenades + W.G. worked out. Love the idea of dragging in Sidir and doing a tag team. Also, the ranged threat on Sidir makes skirting the drinking contest bubble potentially dangerous.

I think I hear what you're saying- you're curious is the question is less important game wide- which ranged master can do x effectively, and more important faction side, Which Guild master can do x effectively. I think that's a fine reposing of the question. I don't know if it changes how I feel about it, though. In that I've been doing "pick a faction" events, and my fallbacks are almost always my control or melee masters. For instance: Guild: Center Control Strats: I would likely go for a Hoffman or a McMourning here. Hoffman can bolster models to make the extremely resilient and more murderous. McMourning does the same, and also allows for more scheme generation. Going with a Sonnia could work because of her ability to damage clustered up enemies, and potentially summon, but is more flimsy herself, and doesn't offer much additional resilience. Dita could work, in that she would be one of the main front liners. Her ability to bolster and take out singles could be very effective. This might just be where the I'm more comfortable playing what I play just rules her out. Interact Schemes: McMourning or Lucas McCabe. McCabe offers a speed that is nearly unmatched, while McMourning hands out interact ap like nearly nothing else. Dita and Sonnia don't bring a ton to these types of strategies, besides perhaps some movement on Dita's part. They can, technically, ward people off with poerful ranged attacks, but if I'm going up against that, I just make sure I can move and interact so if I get blown away, I still have at least locked in points, or redirected AP. Quarter Control Schemes: Guild feels really bad at this. There's not a real dedicated summoner, so this is one where I have found myself reaching for Sonnia- Partly because she can hole up somewhere centrally and do big burst and thin out a quarter, and partly because she has the ability to potentially summon in new stalkers to bolster her own ranks. Past that, I'd go for a Hoffman crew, and do a 4-5 model side that pushes a flank, and a b team that holds a boarder and kills anything that crosses a line. Kill Schemes: Depending on which one: Head Hunter, this is one that Perdita could excel at. Her ability to kill a thing from relatively close range, then obey someone to grab it. That being said, Hoffman can Machine puppet something like howards langston or peacekeeper and kill a thing, then Machine puppet it with a mask to push it then perform the interact. Collect the Bounty: Perdita is a liability here. Sure she can roll deep and not take much of a beating. Hard to take down and can do a lot of her own killing. But her core crew is all enforcer and henchman who aren't as tough as she is- which means if any of them go down, you're playing catchup. And Sonnia could do better, especially if she murders her own minions as they get low to throw out some choice blasts. Reckoning: Probably Lady Justice- She just has the ability to kill something big every turn, and hire/inspire a crew to take out the other. I think that's a good way to look at it- role in faction as opposed to role in game. There are some good options for shooters in there, ya. And again. It might just be that it's what I default to at the end of the day (or the beginning of a game), what do I know can do this thing and that I am comfortable playing. But it feels limiting to think I can do everything with two masters. Being able to effectively play a whole faction seems like it would give me an edge, right? ENinja

Point of order: Dgraz already used that train image on this thread about 4 or 5 pages back? This topic just seems to want to wander. ENinja

Uuurrrp... Fixed.

I remember when you were teaching me the game back in 1.5 about board control: Hard Board control was melee. If you're locking in melee, all you can do is walk, or make melee attacks. Soft Board Control was Ranged and Casting. If you place a ranged threat somewhere, then a person can choose to walk into his sights and still do stuff, but it wasn't as direct or effective- they can still do the thing, they just might get shot. Luckily, my MWM challenge has me playing all the masters I don't default to- Ophelia, Perdita, Sonia, Lynch, and VonSchill. The only ones that are left that aren't what I would consider ranged are Viks, Molly and Brewie.