Fetid Strumpet Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Tournament play is what a game should be balanced upon, because a Tournament player only cares about effective use for SS cost. I personally do not find it fun to include models I really like but that never perform effectively in the game. Case in point the Copycat Killer. I love the model, I love the idea behind him, he however has not once done anything useful in a game other than being a vehicle for delivering Bete, and there are much better models which can do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 What is the options for Seamus in the alternative when compared to other masters? To Belles this is. Anything purchased that McMourning could summon is essentially a wasted master choice, and given you can only reduce WP for living models you are not even able to look at caster supported minions. Does this not leave only the focus on fast moving undead and undead psychosis? Well, consider this at 35ss for an all comers list: Seamus (6ss) Grave Spirit aSeamus Dead Rider Sebastian 6x Canine Remains As opposed to having a few Belles on the board, you have a hoard of dogs that generally hit harder and move faster without needing to crowd round Seamus. You have a much higher chance of totally locking down enemies in a web of Undead Psychosis due to your much higher model count. Two dogs are better at killing things than a single Belle is. Dead Rider and Sebastian provide more hitting power than most lists usually run, and Dead Rider can drag models to it which can be Undead Psychosis'd and forced to run away from Seamus to trigger No Escape. All in all, it means you're able to actually fight your enemy whilst waiting for aSeamus to pop out rather than having no hitting power as most Belle lists have. Or you could run similarly: Seamus (8ss) aSeamus Bete Noire Sebastian 6x Canine Remains You get the idea. What I'm saying is, closing your mind to the rest of the faction because you automatically think "Belles" when looking at Seamus is limiting his viability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tattyted Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Tournament play is what a game should be balanced upon, because a Tournament player only cares about effective use for SS cost. I personally do not find it fun to include models I really like but that never perform effectively in the game. Case in point the Copycat Killer. I love the model, I love the idea behind him, he however has not once done anything useful in a game other than being a vehicle for delivering Bete, and there are much better models which can do that. Fair comment, but I am not sure I agree entirely. Tournament player don't set out to pick a balanced list, they set out to pick the models that give the 'best bang for the buck' as it were. This tends to mean they go to a small selection of the models available and other models that are considered less effective don't get used. Play testing of games to test balance surely isn't based on tournament or competitive play - it is surely based on the overall feel for the game. There is also the argument that a really good player can take models that are considered less effective and win with them. Leaving all that aside, I play a lot of Seamus and don't use the copycat killer neatly as much as I used to -with you on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Fair comment, but I am not sure I agree entirely. Tournament player don't set out to pick a balanced list, they set out to pick the models that give the 'best bang for the buck' as it were. This tends to mean they go to a small selection of the models available and other models that are considered less effective don't get used. Play testing of games to test balance surely isn't based on tournament or competitive play - it is surely based on the overall feel for the game. There is also the argument that a really good player can take models that are considered less effective and win with them. Leaving all that aside, I play a lot of Seamus and don't use the copycat killer neatly as much as I used to -with you on that one. A lot of people in a lot of games have given similar arguments to this before, and my question is this: How can a more balanced model possibly make the game experience for casual players worse? When stuff is balanced, everyone is happy. It may have less effect on a casual player, but it certainly wont negatively impact their play experience... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I addendum'd presuming non-avatar Seamus; but it does seem as though Avatar is the only way to get mileage out of him as it eliminates the Living requirements. Purely interest in the options being why I asked mind you, I am not a Resser player despite having nearly every model in that box ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tattyted Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Calmdown Quite agree that tournament play can help to highlight models that may be need a bit of tlc (if simply because they get a poor reputation). What I am thinking is that there is more to developing a balanced game than simply tournament results. I feel that WM/H suffers from a 'tournament syndrome' in that when one faction does well, a lot of people suddenly start/'rediscover' that faction. And it shows on the fourm boards. I don't get that feeling from Malifaux and hope I never will. I do feel however that, if all models were perfectly balanced, then the game would lose a lot of its character. Mind you, someone, somewhere might actually start using the malifaux child! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I agree about the Belles being overrated. I try a lot of dumb stuff just to see how it will play out--I took Molly with 6 Belles and Sybelle against Lilith, and I don't think I have ever seen a more worthless list of Rezzers. The idea was to get to the objectives fast, but everything just got slaughtered. I knew the list would have problems, but I figured the Belles would hang around a bit longer, though seeing just how bad it was against a strong damage list made me really rethink Belles. I suppose they have their place, for lure. Half the time luring things just puts the opponent in a better position. The one faction they seem to work well against is shooty guild, who don't want to be dragged into melee for the most part. I'm down to 0-2 Belles these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I hate Canine Remains though =/ The idea behind them just doesn't do anything for me. *sigh* I really didn't want to buy any of them. Ahhh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I hate Canine Remains though =/ The idea behind them just doesn't do anything for me. *sigh* I really didn't want to buy any of them. Ahhh well. Start using them in multiples and you'll see how good they are. Really. They're amazing. -2 Df in a huge cloud around your dogs as well as handing out permanent -2 wps, combined with them being significant 2ss models as long as you can keep more than one on the board, makes them really good. That and having a swarm of models that can often charge for (1) in a faction with very limited AP modifiers is great. Oh, and every corpse counter on the table is like guaranteed going to your master Oh, and they're height 1, so they're very difficult to deal with before they're in your face. Just watch out for blast damage and/or guys with 3 minimum damage. And they dont do much damage to other rezzers because of their minimum Dg of 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiku Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 If you're against a gremlin player, you can just take a crew full of them ;3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigkid Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Are there really people out there that base their crews on what other people tell them are good or bad selections?? What an sad, empty experience their gaming must be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 Are there really people out there that base their crews on what other people tell them are good or bad selections?? What an sad, empty experience their gaming must be. Not really. Some people enjoy playing but not listbuilding. Some people don't have time or inclination to read through all the books and find all of the interesting interactions. Some people may want to go to a torunament, having never been to one before, knowing they wont get steamrolled for a bad list selection. Some people want to make sure their hard earned cash isn't going on bad models. There are many reasons why some people choose to let other people pick or heavily influenced their lists, all of them completely valid. ---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 PM ---------- Are there really people out there that base their crews on what other people tell them are good or bad selections?? What an sad, empty experience their gaming must be. Not really. Some people enjoy playing but not listbuilding. Some people don't have time or inclination to read through all the books and find all of the interesting interactions. Some people may want to go to a torunament, having never been to one before, knowing they wont get steamrolled for a bad list selection. Some people want to make sure their hard earned cash isn't going on bad models. There are many reasons why some people choose to let other people pick or heavily influenced their lists, all of them completely valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted February 20, 2012 Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 I disagree hugely with this. I actually think Belles are one of the reasons Seamus players struggle. They're way overrated and used far too often. Show me the last time a list with Belles won any reasonable tournament... For Seamus players to win more, they really need to go back to the drawing board and look at the faction as a whole, rather than autoincluding Belles in every list. They're as much a problem for Seamus as his HtW2, 2ss cache and reliance on living opponents is. First and foremost no where in my sentence did I say take a lot of belles or even to take belles. I like taking a belle or 2 at most with a majority of ressers masters as they tend to aid in the mobility of my crew and the postional game I like to play. No model should ever be an autoinclude, different models work differently in different strategies and schemes. Making anything an auto include is a reciepe for failure. I happen to like what a single belle can bring to the crews I construct, dogs have there place and for the most part are a great killy model for 2 pts. Running a pack is the most efficient way to use them as them, with belle's less is more. Belle aren't a combat model, they are control model I like having my single belle to aid the list. But i've run dog hordes, but you and I both can Agree Calmdown that anymore than 2 belles sometimes any more than 1 belle is wasteful. I still will say Belles' Rock the model is a solid 4pt lure machine with good wounds, it has horrific defense and lack luster combat, that is even when its bolstered by Nicodem. However lure can be an outstanding ability in speeding the crew forward or moving an enemy into the jaws of the list. But I wasn't advocating taking multiple belles with Seamus or any other master as they don't have the speed or killing power to really win games for you. Dead rider is outstanding and I would always find room in my list for rider before I make room for a belle or even dogs. ---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 PM ---------- I do feel however that, if all models were perfectly balanced, then the game would lose a lot of its character. Mind you, someone, somewhere might actually start using the malifaux child! Its a lovely model I may get one to put on a display board as a decoration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Sorry for the Threadomancy, but I was reading through this thread again and saw the comments about the Malifaux Child... Wyrd should cast the Malifaux Child in solid gold and use that for their Gen Con Trophy! *Wink* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 I just love the fact that this game allows me take take all sorts of amusing models and combos that are great fun and I don't care if they help me win. After 15 years of hardcore tournament play in MTG and Warhammer, it's great to be able to just have some fun losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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