Three Demon Bag - Cursed Bacon?

[Bazlord_Prime]

So for 2ss, and the niche abilities it brings, it strikes me as a pretty iffy upgrade. I've read elsewhere that some people like to take it with Sammy. But knocking off immunity to  &  is pretty situational. I could see it being mandatory if you knew you were going to face the Freikorps, but it'd be a gamble any other time, right?

The thing I'm really interested in tho, is the Bacon Curse. It's such a great homage ability to Big Trouble in Little China that I'd like to see it work a bit better than it appears to at face value.

So has anyone got any good stories about when you've gotten some decent use out of it? 

Any tricky synergies that you've found??

Thanks!

[Dogmantra]

I'd like to use it with Mark for Death to get the easy point for the model leaving play but Wong is one of my least played masters. If you were really tricksy you could then mark the pig and punish your opponent for getting their buried model back out.

 

Thing is I'm not sure how useful it would be compared to just taking other schemes.

[Lokibri]

Well i can say one thing for sure. After i got devastated plenty of times by a seemingly overpowerful Nekima i just ordered a beacon pizza and Nekima delivered in a flight :).

So, in clear words: Putting Nekima down for a lil pig that also has to charge nearby firiendly models that normaly lure you their way isn't just hilarious, but also pretty effective. And if the enemy wants to kill it pretty fast, that is one activation of another big hitter, that they normally are able to buy, because 13 Stones is costly and normally enough (except having Lillith as Master) or enough activations to make it worthwhile. In this time my schemes are getting done :). But i guess it was a corner case and i think a straight WP duel between wong and target non-leader model would be better as an extra action :). Maybe too good.

 

 

[Mutter]

Yes, but chances of Nekima not passing the test with her Wp 7 are not exactly high.

[Lokibri]

1 minute ago, Mutter said:

Yes, but chances of Nekima not passing the test with her Wp 7 are not exactly high.

Jeah, just added that it was a corner case ;-). You are totally right

[Bazlord_Prime]

I appreciate that corner case utility, but again - it's a 2ss upgrade, and you'd want to know ahead of time that you were facing something like Nekima, so you could comfortably shell out for it.

Do we all think it's worth taking at 2ss? Bacon Curse at least is kinda tricky to pull off. The opponent essentially has to fail two Wp duels - one unopposed - and you need to throw in an extra  from somewhere...

[Math Mathonwy]

It's really quite bad. Taking away blast immunity isn't worth it even when facing full-on Freikorps IME. If it was an AoE effect but it only removes it from one at the cost of an AP (well, it's an attack that's about on par with Wong's normal attack against Freikorps, granted). But then to get the Blasts you need to Focus and they still have their Armor.

And turning into a Piglet is really corner-case as the duel is pretty easy. Also, the Piglet is awesome in that it is difficult to control (It is never engaged with friendlies so will Charge them perpetually) but the trouble is that the range is 10" while Piglet's Cg is 8 and reach 1" so it will take very careful positioning to keep the Piglet from being able to Charge you. And if it does Charge you (especially Wong), it's surprisingly annoying!

The Mark for Death idea is worth a laugh, though!  

[Bazlord_Prime]

^this.

I'm not going to start theory-fauxing about how to fix the upgrade or anything, but i really do wish it was slightly more realistic. 

Still - not everything has to be bleeding-edge, competitive & tournament-ready. I'll take it - one day! - for a laugh, and hope I can snag something hilarious with it (turning Howard into a Piglet has to be an Achievement Badge, surely?), but even in that capacity, i really do wish it was just 1ss 

[Bazlord_Prime]

7 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

And turning into a Piglet is really corner-case as the duel is pretty easy. 

I'm drawing a blank - there's nothing Wong could bring with him to drain the opponent's hand, is there? I mean, as an ability. 

Maybe a Banjonista or two could try to do it via Duelling Banjos etc, but we might be starting to talk a little too many Soulstones now just for trying to get Bacon Curse to work.

Then again, go hard or go home, right? 

[Gnomezilla]

Forget draining the hand, just put the opponent on negatives first. Call in a performer and put down a scheme marker.

[Bazlord_Prime]

10 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Call in a performer and put down a scheme marker.

Of course! Performers... Thanks, @Gnomezilla. I completely forgot they have that Attack (so far only having run them in a Brewmaster crew for expungement), but that  they can give out would be the last word in facilitating Bacon Curse.

[Gnomezilla]

2 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Of course! Performers... Thanks, @Gnomezilla. I completely forgot they have that Attack (so far only having run them in a Brewmaster crew for expungement), but that  they can give out would be the last word in facilitating Bacon Curse.

And I've never yet used them for expunge. They're just useful scheme marker removing, scheme marker placing, occasional paralyze givers.

[Bazlord_Prime]

We'll there we go! They're twice as handy as either one of us has so far had reason for them to be. Not bad, even at 6ss.

Although, having said all that, "Seduction" is the same Wp13 unopposed duel as Bacon Curse. But at least it can hit multiples, and it would also help to drain cards. I for one would be pretty likely to cheat up in order to avoid  to Df/Wp...

[Bazlord_Prime]

Just had a little revelation another use for Three Demon Bag's "Bacon Curse": it's really Wong's Gremlin-skewed version of the "Glimpse the Void" trigger (it needs a  to trigger, demands an unopposed TN13 Wp duel, and buries the target). It's better in some ways (the target model can be buried even when there's already something else buried, and it only gets to come back once the summoned Piglet dies), but worse in others (your opponent gets a Piglet, which might give them an extra activation, and it can be placed within charge range of Wong, unless he subsequently runs away).

So: Aionus. He's a big investment, but he can smack on anything that's buried. From anywhere. And if he's Wong's Glowy + "Ooo Glowy" target, that gives him a 3/4/6 damage track (that could even go to 4/5/7, if the target has Fast or Slow). 

But, this all still needs the target to be hit with an extra tome, be damaged, and then fail a middling TN duel for it to happen. 

Heck - I'm going to try it. I'll also throw the Malifaux Child in there to give me an extra shot at it each Turn. 

Thoughts tho?

[Math Mathonwy]

3 hours ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Thoughts tho?

Certainly very amusing! Probably not very competitive as such, but I like it. And will probably take your opponent by surprise at least  

[Bazlord_Prime]

On 4/19/2018 at 6:47 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

Certainly very amusing! Probably not very competitive as such, but I like it. And will probably take your opponent by surprise at least  

Okay, so I gave this a go at my weekly game, last night, and ummm... nup. It didn't work.

TL;DR - turned no-one into Pigs, but I was shooting too high with it, but it really did help me out just as a Ca Attack that can be used while engaged.
 

So: I'll be honest!  I didn't really go about it all that smartly, and there were some side benefits that arose from doggedly trying to turn my opponent's crew into Piglets, but alas - no pork was to be had.

So, I took the following-following list, for the following strats & schemes:

Ply for Information - Corner Deployment
- Surround Them (Always)   (Gremlins)
- Dig Their Graves (2)            (Neverborn)
- Set Up (3)                              (Gremlins & NB)
- Inescapable Trap (6)
- Vendetta (12)

GREMLINS
Wong (6ss cache)
- Three Demon Bag
- Ooo Glowy
- Dirty Cheater
Malifaux Child
Sammy LaCroix
- Sparkly Lights
Gremlin Crier
Swine Cursed
Bayou Gremlin
Aionus
- Do Over
- Dirty Cheater

NEVERBORN
Titania (5ss Cache)
- Fears Given Form
- Behold My Glory
- Royal Indignation
Primordial Magic
Cyclops
- Retribution's Eye
The Thorn
The Tooth
Rougarou
Will O' The Wisp
Miss Deeds

So, the first turn was all about positioning. 

Second turn, Wong got stuck in with his bacon-making attempts, having three cracks at Titania. BIG mistake (obviously, but I was all enthusiastic about having a couple of big cards + the Red Joker in my hand). While all three attacks get through, the problems were: always needing that second Tome (so I used 2 stones, I think); Titania has Impossible to Wound, so I was usually on a double negative to damage, meaning my opponent would stone to remove 1-2 damage and prevent the trigger from going off. Only one of the attempts went through to the TN12 Wp duel stage, and with Wp7 to start, he easily made it.  On the positive side, my opponent did burn 3 of his stones during all that (damage reduction attempts), and he also cheated through most of his cards (and all of his high ones, to boot).
So I thought I might be able to sneak through a cheeky fourth attempt with the Malifaux Child, and I nearly did!  But of course, his "Royal Indignation" upgrade reduces all damage from Peons by 2, so...yep. Minimum damage was automatically reduced to zero 😞

By the third turn, Wong was engaged by Titania and the Thorn, and this is where the other side-benefit of Three Demon Bag became apparent. Usually, when I get Wong in engagement, I have trouble getting him out. I know he has his Ml trigger to place away, but that needs the right card, or a stone, to be fairly certain. And it's only Ml 5, so it's not as reliable as I'd like. It's also kind of a waste of AP, since it doesn't do a lot of damage, and you're forced to attack a model that's engaging Wong, whereas there might've been a more critical target to attack.  This of course means that his Lightning Jump attack can't be used, which is a real shame 😞  Three Demon Bag, on the other hand, allowed me to Ca Attack out of engagement at both the Will O' The Wisp and the Puke Snake, killing them in one attack each (due to bypassing Incorporeal), and also releasing my Swine Cursed from being Incorporeal thanks to the Primordial's Attack Condition (that was crucial, as the Swine was legging it around the perimeter of the board, accomplishing Surround Them all by himself).

So what I took away from that game was:
- Three Demon Bag (TDB) is decent just for it's general attack. Especially if you're expecting Incorporeal enemies. 2 stones is still a bit hefty, but maybe if you know that your opponent isn't going to be bunching up, or if you know that you don't necessarily want to blast the crud out of them (such as during Ply?), it might be worth considering;
- don't aim at Masters with TDB, cause that's just a great way to waste AP and stones, and still not get any Piglets on the board. Okay - maybe if you know that they're all out of stones, all out of high cards, and the Master has a lowish Wp stat and no HtW/ItW.  Maybe...
- And don't try to turn smaller Minions and Peons into Piglets, as you'll probably just kill them outright first, or give them a model (Piglet) that is actually better than their original!
- Probably the best targets for the Bacon Curse are the middling cost ones, that can't use stones. I'm kicking myself for never even trying to turn The Tooth and The Thorn into Pigs, as with Wp 5 and no stone usage, I probably would've gotten them both. And then Aionus could've done his thing.

So I'll try this again next game, and just try to be smart about it. As it was, I still walked away the winner 8-5, so I don't think that taking TDB - and using pretty much all of Wong's AP on it during the game - hurt me at all.

Cheers!

[Math Mathonwy]

Congrats on the win!

As for your analysis on Three Demon Bag - well I can see the utility and the flexibility that it offers as a non- attack but I'm still not sure that it is good use for Master AP to shooting with something that is essentially Collodi's Attack without the crazy Triggers (and without in-built to the Damage Flip). And paying 2SS for the privilege to boot!

Bacon Curse should be baked in - then the attack would have at least some merit. And the Upgrade should probably cost 0SS as well  

[Bazlord_Prime]

On 4/27/2018 at 10:12 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

Congrats on the win!

As for your analysis on Three Demon Bag - well I can see the utility and the flexibility that it offers as a non- attack but I'm still not sure that it is good use for Master AP to shooting with something that is essentially Collodi's Attack without the crazy Triggers (and without in-built to the Damage Flip). And paying 2SS for the privilege to boot!

Bacon Curse should be baked in - then the attack would have at least some merit. And the Upgrade should probably cost 0SS as well  

Thanks!

Can't say I disagree about the pricing. It really does seem to need to come down to 1ss, or as you say, have Bacon Curse baked in. Well - if it's to be used against high-calibre targets. I'll try it again tomorrow night against mid-level targets and see what happens...

One option I haven't explored yet is putting 3Demons on Sammy. I'd be loath to lose her having either Sparkly, or Ooo Glowy, and it's against fluff, because it's Wong's model that's carrying the damned bag, but it could be a thing...