What to do vs. elite crews?

[Lord Malkom]

Hello there,

after I played some games against the people in my city. I figured out, that they nearly ALL love to play elite crews. The last game was 6 models against me. 1 Master and Totem included...

I really don't like those lists and in this case, my list contained Rafkin as the most expensive model. So I was quite doomed from the beginning.

I have the feeling that the resser really lack of some beatsticks. Izamu is fine but if someone ignores armor (which is usually the case in an elite model crew) he is dead really quick...

So what should I play against those crews with nearly only Enforcer and Henchmen? If I buy a hanged I bet they will all run to him to kill him first. So I don't think it would be worth it.

[solkan]

What, specifically, did you field against the six model crew?

One of the things to keep in mind is that one 6SS model vs. a 12SS model isn't an even fight.  The stats favor the more expensive model.

So why on Earth would you try to go one-on-one and not take advantage of the fact that you have more activations, and thus more action points per turn, than the elite crew?

[Lord Malkom]

Just now, solkan said:

What, specifically, did you field against the six model crew?

One of the things to keep in mind is that one 6SS model vs. a 12SS model isn't an even fight.  The stats favor the more expensive model.

So why on Earth would you try to go one-on-one and not take advantage of the fact that you have more activations, and thus more action points per turn, than the elite crew?

My Models (without Upgrades)

McMourning

Chihuaha

Sebastian

Rafkin

2 Nurse

Rotten Belle

Flesh Construct

 

 

And I have absolutely no idea how to take advantage of the more actions per turn and so on. In this case, Mei Feng and her anti shoot bubble was the reason I couldn't do ANYTHING before they were close. The Arcanists emissary pushed McMourning around so he stood alone in their team and therefore died...

[godswearhats]

Sounds like you have multiple problems. I'll try to brain dump as many advice nuggets as I can, without asking too many questions.

If you have more models than your opponent, you automatically start out with activation control. As you summon models into the game, you're aiming to either maintain or increase your lead in model count. A simple strategy is to activate your weak models first (peons and minions) and then activate your strong models last in order to react to what your opponent is doing. It obviously gets more complex than that, but it's a starting point.

McMourning can summon two types of models - Flesh Constructs (one per turn) and Canine Remains (depends on how many models die from Poison). Try to identify targets in your opponent's crew that you can kill in one Activation with McMourning and do that to create a Flesh Construct. When you are able to do that, you create a big swing. Assuming you kill the totem (probably the easiest model to kill in any given game) that's a 9SS swing in your direction - they lose 3 and you gain 6. Use Rotten Belles (I'd suggest two Belles and one Nurse with McMourning - see the beginner's guide on tactics for him) to Lure in your target. In the case of Mei Feng's Vent Steam aura, you can have the first Belle focus before trying to Lure (to cancel out the flips, and then the second Belle can Lure twice because the model will be outside of Mei Feng's bubble).

Killing with McMourning is pretty easy: surround a model with Undead, either directly or by moving McMourning within 3" of a bunch of models, and then cast Rancid Transplant as many times as needed before hitting Expunge.

Rafkin punches above his weight, but he dies very easily if you try to go toe-to-toe. Use another model to put Poison on something and then Rafkin really shines, getting a 1 AP charge, followed by another 1 AP attack and a 0 AP attack (or two 0 AP attacks if you have My Little Helper), with 3/4/5 damage track because of his own aura.

Make sure and load McMourning up with Poison as your first action. You can have a Nurse just attack him and he will relent and get no damage and Poison +4. She can then do the same to Rafkin, because he heals from Poison. Then, assuming McMourning activates within 8" of Sebastian, he will tick one poison and push 5". He will also push 5" at the end of the turn, which can really help get him out of trouble if your opponent has been moving him around.

Nurses are a nightmare to deal with. Having a Ca 6 action with an 8" range that can Paralyze is devastating. If you get a 13 in hand (or Red Joker, or very low and a 13 of anything else), use it to paralyze a big model of theirs before it activates - there are only a small number of models with Wp 7, so as long you don't target one of those and you have a 13 in hand, you'll either get the Paralyze or you'll pull the Red Joker from your opponent's hand. I often use this on enemy Masters. If Mei Feng has her aura up, just have your Nurse focus first. Likewise, if your Nurse is too far away, you can use a Lure or McMourning's Injection to get her to where she needs to be.

Don't hire a Flesh Construct with McMourning. You're much better off trying to summon one.

Bring the Carrion Emissary. See the beginner's guide on why this model is essential for any Resser player. It does so much with McMourning and is great at messing with Elite crews because it can place two 50mm barriers that their elite guys just can't get through, meaning that you influence more control over the battleground. Oh, and you get a nice little zombie too, to help with activation control.

I know this is a scattergun approach to advice, but hopefully some of it will be useful!

~gwh

[spooky_squirrel]

Also: if you're looking to hand out paralyze mid-game, pay attention to where condition immunities and condition removal are. Against Arcanists the immunity to Paralyze will be Mei Feng herself (also immunity to slow), and any Henchman with a 1 stone Warding Rune upgrade and a nearby (in LOS) Mage with Blood Ward. The condition removal will be the Effigy and/or Johan. Kill that mage or otherwise break its 10" and LOS requirement and now that Henchman is vulnerable. Wait to apply conditions like paralyze until after the removal elements have gone (@godswearhats mentioned activation control, get it and use it) or are dead. If those removal elements end up outside of Mei's bubble, Lure them well away from the things you want to paralyze. If I have to spend a turn getting my Effigy back over next to Kang or the Emissary to remove his paralysis so that he can actually get some work done, you're keeping at least 13-14 stones (and two of my models) busy responding to a single Lure just so that one of them might get to do something with his AP.

[Lord Malkom]

Yes, most of that helps

I put all models into a corner (except the Necropunk I forgot to mention) and so he just went with everything he had there. But even if I think about splitting them. It wouldn't make much sense. Most of the models need each other so they have to be together, right?

 

The other Mei Feng problem was that she used steam vents twice for double negative flips. So focus+lure didn't work at all. I used double focus and Transfusion. Applying Paralyzed wasn't possible because of the Aura as mentioned.

I didn't have the McMourning upgrade with moving when damaged by posion, so maybe I take that next time too. I thought Transfusion was the best way to give posion to the enemy. A flesh Construct getting hit by a Nurse so the enemy model will die for sure after that. The Upgrade making everyone near him into undead is something else I should consider it seems.

But if McMourning goes down, I'm not sure how to kill those +10SS models

Maybe a suicidal Rafkin with My little Helper? Is that upgrade really as good as I hear from everyone?

 

I don't own the carrion emissary, but it seems I really have to buy it.

[Saduhem]

IF they're all in Mei Feng's aura, consider just doing your schemes without worrying too much about getting into her steam bubble. Also, if you ever intend to get Anna Lovelace, Mei Feng would not be able to railwalk within her 8 inch clockwork dress aura

[Lord Malkom]

That was another problem. There were basically only kill schemes. One was with the "sucker" and the other killing the model with the highest cost. So that were my schemes sadly. I tried to use the necropunk as a distraction but only the emberling followed and lost against him.

And I will first buy Carrions effigy and emissary and the walking corpse markers for the emissary

[Saduhem]

Sometimes you're boned and you just can't win  Sorry about that

[spooky_squirrel]

Positioning is a key piece of the puzzle, but we would need to have an idea of what the terrain is like to better address your positioning as it relates to strategy/schemes/opposition.
In general, if you tucked yourself into a corner in a standard deployment game, you're restricting your ability to respond to the board. Central positions have the most flexibility to deal with changes to the board state, and the strategy and schemes may call for actually being in the center.

If your cover/concealment and terrain is too sparse, shooting lists will fair a whole lot better because you have nowhere to duck into to force the opponent onto negatives or deny them shots outright. If you have too many tight places, elite melee lists might be stronger because they're harder to overwhelm with numbers and their own crew is less likely to get in their way.

So with those two general ideas and a focus on positioning, I'd guess that (unless you were playing corner deployment) your corner deployment gave up too much influence over the board for you to get a lot of work done on your schemes.

If your opponent is venting steam twice, then the only other thing Mei Feng is doing in her activation is walking (rail or otherwise), which means she's not going to project much influence onto the board early in the game. Especially if she's keeping her whole crew inside that aura. If they are doing this because they're afraid of your Lures, pat yourself on the back, because they're sacrificing board position and control to avoid your Lures. You can exploit that by being a little more bold in your own play.

Models may have synergies that work off of each other, but it is not always necessary to start clustered or stay clustered. Various poison/undead/awful things that McMourning and Company do when they're overlapping their effects don't matter in your deployment zone as much as they matter around the objectives for the strat/scheme. If your opponent is playing defensively (vent steam twice and stay clustered), then you can push forward more and keep the fight in their area.
Spreading out isn't the same thing as splitting off, because if you spread out in such a way where you can flex your crew into a ball of death around a given point (like around the Extraction objective) by the end of Turn 2, you still have your synergies working for you. You can also use this kind of approach to set traps for more aggressive players, where one of your models serves as bait (you're summoning more, so don't sweat it as long as it's not critical to your overall plan) and the rest of your crew waits for the time to pounce on whichever model takes the bait. I cannot stop your scheme runners and stay inside Mei Feng's bubble--something has to leave.

 

On the subject of schemes: if you're not playing tutorial games, flip for your schemes. You should be choosing two schemes from a pool of 5, which means you should always have at least one choice that involves scheme markers (Claim Jump/A Line in the Sand), and a range of interesting options that might require positioning, killing, surviving, placing conditions, or scheme markers. If you are playing learning games, have a scheme that's interact-based and a scheme that's kill-based, because mastering interacts is how you can win the game even if your whole crew ends up dead. If you are already flipping for schemes and somehow constantly ending up with kill-oriented schemes, ask your opponent for a reflip on schemes so that both of you can play into the greater scheme pool.

[Lord Malkom]

Well in this case I just remember which both of us picked as schemes. The Strategy was Headhunter. We both took the same schemes. The Sucker and that assassinate the model with the highest SS cost. So it was practically kill everyone in the opponent team.

The board was in my opinion, very overloaded with forests and houses. Nearly no place to put my models properly in my opinion. But this is absolutely normal for games here, that there ist a lot of terrain on the board. Too much as I said, if you ask me. It was normal deployment. And I wasn't sure how to place them. I put them all into one corner because it was the only possibility to see 12 oder 18 inches, after the enemy team went through the forest.

That would also explain why everyone is playing an elite list here... the boards are alsways in their favour.

Well Mei Feng didn't have to do anything in turn 2 except that. In Turn 3 she activated late so the steam vent was still there and I couldn't do anything. My opponent did everything right and my list wasn't good against it was the biggest problem I think.

I wanted to position myself closer to him, but when McMourning went too far, he attacked with the Emissary and with the 2 attacks with the push trigger, he just pushed McMourning into his team and so he was dead and I couldn't do anything (even with def stance 1 and 4 soulstones to prevent...)

 

I played all games with flipping for Schemes and Strategys, Usually I pick something with Scheme Markers because I really like the Necropunks. But this game most of that sucked, and I thought, killing one model with McMourning fast and earn points from it can't be that hard. And the Sucker one was picked because I read that Rafkin always dies during a game, so I thought that are safe points. I forgot which were the other ones but I wasn't happy with them.

Small rule question, I'm quite sure we played it right. But when the Chihuahua uses Expunge, the armor of the victim will prevent damage, right?

 

 

[Ludvig]

Yes, armor affects expunge on the chihuahua.

You say the game was "basically kill everyone i the enemy team" but it doesn't sound like that to me. When you go for the most expensive model you can't afford to kill too many models that don't grant VP. In headhunter you also want to kill few models in the right places, not go kill crazy. I frequently win by picking up mostly my own heads and just denying my enemy from picking up any heads even if my crew is dying like flies. A chatty model and someone who can interact while engaged is amazing for that strat. Long engagement ranges are also a must. Let the enemy put ap into killing and steal the VP for yourself

Why not try the always available scheme and focus less on killing? Necropunks are great for that.

If Rafkin was your frame target - what was he doing? Did he charge right into Mei and her powerball? That should get him killed.

Against such a powerball I would use Sebastian and the chihuahua and run them right into the crew. The chihuahua gives everyone auto poison and then they take 6 damage (between activating and end if turn) because Sebastian is near. Frame for murder on one of them because they will be targeted. It also has tje bonus of not counting as your kills so no points on frame for murder if the opposing sucker dies and no heads placed.