Are Rotten Belles too Good?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Beckoners keep an effect up that is death to have on you against Jakob's crew, and they a=have an amazing Ranged attack which I take them for almost all the time just to have access to in Pandora's crew. They also auto trigger a 4" move when casting their Lure, as the trigger for Not That Kind of Girl is baked in. If you are only ever using your beckoners for Lure bots, then yes, Bells are better. I never found Beckoners to be over costed and I use them all the time in Jakob and Pandora crews. Now, and I said this during the Open Beta for them, I wouldn't have minded seeing manipulative 10-12 on them, but straight out comparing them doesn't work in my opinion because at base they aren't doing the exact same roles, but ymmv. If all you are looking for is a Lure bot, the unequivically yes belles are better. I wouldn't support it but if you wanted to drop all their other abilities and just make them similar to Belles I wouldn't have a problem with it, other than Pandora would field nothing else but them in a list.

[decker_cky]

I'm not sure an errata is necessary either, but if it is, then earlier is actually better. As it stands, these 'well above par' models will overshadow balanced models during testing. I'll call them above par, because they aren't broken, but they do skew crews and factions.

There's multiple ways to deal with this, each will make some people unhappy. One option is to have new models steer well clear of purpose overlap with above par models. Another is to accept that some new models will just be underused compared to those above par models. The last way it to fix the above par models, then balance everything as best as possible. There is another option, but boosting new models above par because they don't compare to wave 1 above par models absolutely should not be the way to go.

I think consideration should be given to fixing those models now, since it opens the possibility to get errata'd cards out with the wave 2 arsenal packs.

[Mastershake]

For example I also feel Austringers might be too powerful, but I absolutely do not agree that we should errata them. I feel Illuminated arte way too strong for a 7SS non-unique model, but would not support changing them. And I feel this way because currently absolutely non of these models, from my perspective, are breaking the game.

I won't say this is wrong, but having models that bend the power curve of a game this hard even without breaking it messes up your design space a lot. A Rotten Belle can currently Lure almost any model in their LoS in the game with little to no possibility of failure short of a severe hand discrepancy (and even then their Ca is so high it's not out of the question for them to just flip into it). The Austringer is the same way, nothing in any crew I've fielded can resist a Sh stat of 7 that also ignores cover and LoS. The problem is not that their stats are so high, but that their stats are higher than many masters or models double or more than their point cost.

Identifying where the game is bending beforehand can keep it from breaking with future releases. For example, Lucius now has the potential for a massive NPE not because he's bonkers but because he happens to buff minions of which the Austringer is one. If you have something outside the power curve and have the ability to address it (which we do now seeing as how the bulk of M2E cards are yet to be released), you should unless it's a carefully considered intentional outlier.

---------- Post added at 01:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 PM ----------

Beckoners keep an effect up that is death to have on you against Jakob's crew,

So Beckoners should be useless outside of Lynch?

and they a=have an amazing Ranged attack which I take them for almost all the time just to have access to in Pandora's crew.

WTF Beckoners have you been fielding? Sh 6 and a 1/2/4 is amazing? Mine have a weak damage track for 7ss and outside of RJ are almost universally Brilliance bots.

They also auto trigger a 4" move when casting their Lure, as the trigger for Not That Kind of Girl is baked in.

Not That Kind of Girl is the only thing that makes Beckoners pallatable for 7ss.

I never found Beckoners to be over costed and I use them all the time in Jakob and Pandora crews.

I use them because it's the only auto-brilliance before Lynch and Huggy activate, not because I feel like they're especially worth it. In fact their low stats have left them struggling or simply getting dropped in about half the games, but lacking them makes the crew feel clumsy. In practice the only reason I begin to accept their bizarrely high cost is because the Illuminated feel comparably undercosted. The Beckoner's 7ss cost is just the Illuminated discount tax I accept for Lynch's crew, not something that makes any sense for the model on their own.

[OrangeKnight]

In my mind these figures help define the flavor of their factions. The belles help show how the rezzers make horrible twisted versions of their past lives more powerful in undeath and the austringer helps enforce how the guild is the best faction with a gun. There doesn't seem to be any reason to cuddle these models unless you want each faction to be nothing more than a reskin of models elsewhere. Balance does not require symmetry.

The austringer is yes, going to hit someone, and deal a bit of damage, but that doesn't seem that worrisome. The belles can reliably cast lure, good, that is what they are there for. But they don't do damage or have any other real utility besides being rather tanky. I firmly believe that niche models can have stats comprable to masters and enforcers in order to reliably affect the game. If the only use of minions is to kill other minions while the big models play together, then the game has lost sight of what skirmish sized games are about. I personally love the belles and austringer as are, and having played both with and against them recently, I think they are completely appropriate in terms of flavor and power.

[dgraz]

This sure is a good discussion. Both sides make great points. I'm actually waffling on which side I fall on. While I may disagree with Fetid about certain things about the Belles, I do agree with his overall philosophy of not making changes unless it actually breaks the game.

However, Mastershake's point of having models that bend the game to the point that one new model, one over-looked interaction, could break them is very strong.

I think I pretty much stand with Decker.....I'm not certain that an errata is necessary, but if the big hats decide that it is, sooner is better than later.

[i_was_like_you]

Which ties back into the Legacy Factor. Austringers were Cb 7 before, which Lucius could use to make Cb 9 attacks with, at 18", ignoring LoS & cover. It was powerful then, and we've seen the Austringers make it through with that same high Cb attack. Belles had an effective Ca 8 auto suited on Lure before, and they have it still.

Both were probably undercosted for what they do in first ed. When they made the transition, instead of only being upped one soulstone apiece, maybe they should have gone up a couple each.

The Twins are still in playtesting, but their 7ss each still made them a near auto-include at 14 for the pair, even in the 25 to 35ss range of first edition, for what they could do.

Each model's ss cost has gone up, not just the ones I've mentioned, but those increases are negligible at the 50ss level, even factoring in Upgrades for Masters, Henchmen, and Enforcers. If a 5ss model x2 or 3 can do more for me than an Enforcer with an Upgrade, it's going to see more play. The value of utility models cannot overlooked, even if their utility supposedly lies only in one trick. One very good trick at the master level that sets up so much more for a crew.

[Ausplosions]

I think we should start over.

Once wave 2 is done, instead of doing all these errata everyone thinks all these models/upgrades need, let's just do Wave 3, which is just wave 1 again, but better!

Things that are "good" do not need errata. Things that are broken do.

Belles are not broken.

I can see now that M2E is going to be the edition of people demanding errata to things they have no skill at working out themselves.

[dgraz]

I can see now that M2E is going to be the edition of people demanding errata to things they have no skill at working out themselves.

While that may, in part, be true......there are people in this thread that have no problem 'working things out themselves'. Hence the conversation. Don't ruin it with your broad generalities.

[Ausplosions]

Sorry If I'm "ruining it" for you I'm sorry.

Should I change my opinion to one more of your liking?

Dgraz is correct in this and all points. Please ensure that you only voice your opinions in a way that is both agreeing with him and in a manner of his choosing.

[Mako]

You know, I think I'll step in before it gets to a point where someone gets banned.

No more snippy posts.

I'd also venture that wave 1 is not going to be errata'd unless something is totally skewing the game. They're not in beta any more, so any change will be a massive thing to undertake and not done just to fine tune. Please bear that in mind when discussing changes to things already in print, of all kinds.

[dgraz]

Sorry If I'm "ruining it" for you I'm sorry.

Should I change my opinion to one more of your liking?

You're opinion is more than welcome. General statements that everyone who thinks something may be too strong just 'can't figure it out' are not true, and not constructive.

Dgraz is correct in this and all points. Please ensure that you only voice your opinions in a way that is both agreeing with him and in a manner of his choosing.

Doesn't everyone already know this? Did it even need to be said?

[Justin]

You know, I think I'll step in before it gets to a point where someone gets banned.

No more snippy posts.

I'd also venture that wave 1 is not going to be errata'd unless something is totally skewing the game. They're not in beta any more, so any change will be a massive thing to undertake and not done just to fine tune. Please bear that in mind when discussing changes to things already in print, of all kinds.

As usual, Mako is correct.

Open betas are great for a lot of reasons, but one unfortunate side effect is that, after they're over, everyone has been trained to try to tweak/break/redesign models. Wave 1 is no longer in beta. Errata is saved for things which are either blatant typos, or things which are so powerful that they break the game. Rotten Belles fall under neither of those classifications. They will not receive an errata.

Feel free to have the conversation. Not trying to stop that. Just pointing out where I think this is coming from, and where it will end up.

---------- Post added at 12:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 PM ----------

And after reading the last page I see this thread is going nowhere good.

Feel free to start a new one.