Terrain Scale

[ChimaeraGW]

I'm new to Malifaux and am trying to scratchbuild some terrain.

I've seen some posts about the scale of the figures not being entirely consistant. What I'm working on I'm going with the assumption that doors should be aprox. 2" tall x 1 3/4" wide

Does this seem right?

[Omenbringer]

A pretty safe scale (and one that I have been using) is 1/3" = 1'. Keep in mind most terrain may look a bit off due to the miniatures basing giving everyone about another foot of height.

[Domime Nox]

Wouldn't that mean that a door is around 2 1/3" tall, when the miniatures are roughly 30mm tall, which is 3cm, which is 1 1/5" so that would mean a door is twice as tall as a person? Actual 32mm scale suggests 1' is roughly 5mm, or 1/5 of an Inch, which would mean a 7' door would be 1 2/5" tall.

[nagash13]

I was told there would be no math.

in most games, terrain is rarely accurate. true to scale buildings would just get out of hand really fast. of course as malifaux is a skirmish game with fewer minis on the table, big terrain is ok. if you are even remotely close, im sure it will look great.

[Omenbringer]

Wouldn't that mean that a door is around 2 1/3" tall, when the miniatures are roughly 30mm tall, which is 3cm, which is 1 1/5" so that would mean a door is twice as tall as a person? Actual 32mm scale suggests 1' is roughly 5mm, or 1/5 of an Inch, which would mean a 7' door would be 1 2/5" tall.

As I pointed out actual scale will look funny due to the addition of the models base. That base adds quite a bit of height to the models.

Also keep in mind that most doors during the Western or Victorian age were significantly shorter than the 7' standard that is in use today. Most period buildings were much smaller in all dimensions than modern construction due to a lot of factors chief of which was the lack of forced air heating.

If you take a look in my gallery you'll see a picture of the Som'er Teeth Jones model I did that incorporates a door for his scenic base. The Dimensions for that door are very close to 1.3" by 1".

[harbinger]

sorry in a hurry so this be short. Your safe doing doors 1.5 inch by 3/4 inch. Gives a semi accurate ratio look compared to Malif minis.

Edited September 24, 2013 by harbinger

[Pagan Wolfe]

I make many of mine much larger to allow 40mm bases and some of the taller models through. I don't think I have ever build anything to a precise scale as it just doesn't work as well within the rules and with the models.

Bigger is better as more models will be able to use it effectively, unless you are trying to trap 'them' on the outside!

[ChimaeraGW]

I guess that was kinda what I'm looking for ... I want to "standardize" my terrain a bit so that human or shorter figures would fit through but larger wouldn't. Afterall you don't build your house so that the 12' monstrousity can come over for tea and cake.

So if I built the door 2" x 1 1/4" (sorry original post was incorrect) would this allow most figures to "pass through". I realize basing may change that.

Or do you just make an assumption that if there is a door that a human figure or shorter can easily pass through but larger figures can't, regardless of the actual size of the door.

[Dracomax]

I guess that was kinda what I'm looking for ... I want to "standardize" my terrain a bit so that human or shorter figures would fit through but larger wouldn't. Afterall you don't build your house so that the 12' monstrousity can come over for tea and cake.

So if I built the door 2" x 1 1/4" (sorry original post was incorrect) would this allow most figures to "pass through". I realize basing may change that.

Or do you just make an assumption that if there is a door that a human figure or shorter can easily pass through but larger figures can't, regardless of the actual size of the door.

I'm a fan of 1:36 as the scale, i.e. 1 Malifaux table inch =36 inches/1 yard/3 ft/.914 meters

NOTE: I haven't really studied this, but I have visited many US historical sites, so while it is based off of impressions from tour guides and experience, I can't gauruntee the accuracy of the following:

If you look at Malifaux era houses and buildings, they tend to have low doors(although these doors may or may not be double) and high ceilings. It varies, of course, by the building type and location, with southern to middle US frontier buildings having doors opposed to each other for cross-breaze and ceilings averaging something like about 6-12 foot(In Malifaux, height 2-4), and Government buildings and Mansions tend to be in the 10-16 foot range(Height~3-4) with a few rooms being as high as 18-20 Foot(Height ~4-5). High ceilings were a big deal, simply because they had no air conditioning, so increasing circulation and building higher ceilings had the effect of making it much cooler in the house/building. Actual log cabins, and buildings with no lumber conveniently around, tended to be about 6-8 feet, though, (~2-3, mostly 3) simply because it was easier, cheaper, and quicker to build that way. If you had an easy place to quarry nearby, it tended to add about a foot to the ceiling height. Doors were mostly slimmer, but they had ranges that went up to those found today, with multiple doors not being uncommon in anyone of middle class or higher.

That being said, the City of Malifaux wasn't built for Humans. It was built for the native species, of who we know little, other than that they were generally Human sized. We can't even be sure that there weren't enough large (height 3+) members of the society for their to have been relatively common accommodations for them at the time of the Tyrants(who had been altering themselves and the populace for years, according to the fluff) While shorter doors were probably common, They would not have been so short or thin that larger creatures couldn't get in, although they might have had to duck.

Of course, anything built since Humans made the breach by the humans would be sized for humans, and the gremlins probably have a bunch of height 1.2 doors and height 2 or less buildings.

---------- Post added at 07:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 AM ----------

Keep in mind that you either need a door houserule(passing through the door counts as difficult terrain, or an extra inch per base size beyond what fits{so a 33mm wide door would be an extra inch for a 40mm base, and 2 for a 50mm base} seem fairly common.) or you need to have doors that the bases can fit through(at minimum 35 mm wide, preferably more).

---------- Post added at 07:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 AM ----------

And for sizes of current doors, we have this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door#Dimensions]Wikipedia door dimensions. For metric measurements, I'd convert to mm, and then divide by 36. for Imperial, I'd convert to feet, ignoring any additional inches, and then divide by 3.

[harbinger]

I guess that was kinda what I'm looking for ... I want to "standardize" my terrain a bit so that human or shorter figures would fit through but larger wouldn't. Afterall you don't build your house so that the 12' monstrousity can come over for tea and cake.

So if I built the door 2" x 1 1/4" (sorry original post was incorrect) would this allow most figures to "pass through". I realize basing may change that.

Or do you just make an assumption that if there is a door that a human figure or shorter can easily pass through but larger figures can't, regardless of the actual size of the door.

everyone is going have own taste but your size is going be too large if is just a single door.

[harbinger]

Had a moment to spare so Lilith agreed to model and give you an idea of sizing on the door.

first shot against a 1.5 inch door. Compared to mini height door would be about right, do to base her head comes up almost flush with top door, but when gaming you wont notice and will look fine.

Now you wanted go 2inch.. this next shot shows a doorway just a hair over 1.75inch. So gives you idea how door will look at 2inch. If your going for realistic at all, your measurement will look too big on a normal door. Now if your not going for semi realistic and going for a more "comic" look (which does match the art style of lot Mali minis..) go for it. Its your terrain, build it to make yourself happy and to hell with anyone elses opinion.

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We have tried few optional rules using doors. Things like opening or closing a door cost an ap (also tried a inch of movement as cost) and came to conclusion it bogs things down and not worth effort. Game flow > realism. We find its best to just pretend door not actually there. You will have to eye ball LOS if model inside building and standing at edge the door frame. Your going get all kinds arguments..." Im behind the wall and can reach out with my gun and still shoot but they cant shoot me..." Just put a stop to that before even begins. Common sense rule.. if you can get line sight to them.. they can get it back.

As far as base sizes... we found it easier to rule that even if size too large for door they can stoop, turn sideways, whatever to get in. Hey.. they been living with thier sizes they used to getting around. We played with penalties for them going in (realistic) but in end decided it just bogged things down and gave unfair advantages. You also dont want rule the mature neph cant follow the guild guardsman inside the door due to base size blah blahblah. Trust me it leads to problems.

Keep in mind, while adding deapth to combat sounds good; it slows things down and once again gives unfair advantages

Edited September 24, 2013 by harbinger

[Pagan Wolfe]

Some pretty good points there and I suppose that's where I was coming from with making doors 'too big'. Most of my terrain would have doors too high and too large (then again, we can say that places like the train station are meant to have large, wide doors).

When building terrain I think it is a point you need to consider, is it for looking real and right or is it for the way it interacts with the rules?

I make some doors bigger just so that players KNOW if they fit or not and can plan tactics accordingly.

So good points all round and depends entirely on how you want the piece to look and function. My personal preference is function when it comes to terrain for games.

[i_was_like_you]

Doors are just load screens on the battlefield. Do whatever's aesthetically pleasing for your board, but form and function need not be intrinsically tied together.

[Pagan Wolfe]

I politly disagree that form and function are not linked with terrain, in fact I would argue the opporsite and that they are vitally linked. You need to have a clear idea of the rules and how you want the piece to interact with those rules before you build. Having stuff that looks like one thing but acts like another is confusing.

I have made many, many cool looking pieces of terrain that were rubbish to play on (due to rules conflicts or ambiguity) or did not work across systems (again due to rules conflicts).

Making a display? Focus on looks. Making it to play with on a table? Pay attention to how you want it to influence and change the game.

Just my 2 cents

[mperry1701]

We have a adopted the ignore door rule as well I the building I made. Granted my door are oversized so the minis would fit though them but they would still need to open them. As you have said added rules to open doors and such just bog everything down to much.

[Dracomax]

We just don't put doors in, but that's probably not the best solution. I wouldn't have a problem with any of the following as "door rules."

1. Opening/closing doors is a (1) or (0) interact—so it can't be done while engaged
   
2. Moving through doors is difficult terrain
   
3. Moving through doors is an extra inch per base size
   
4. Moving through doors is standard movement, but if the base can't fit, it can't be done when engaged
   
5. Moving through doors is standard movement, but if your base is too large for the door, any models within 2" get a free disengaging strike to stop you.
   
6. Walls are breakable
   
7. Doors are ignored/nonexistent. Doorways are similar to small debris(barrels, crates, low fences) and provide hard cover, but take an extra inch to move through.
   
8. doorways have a width rating decided beforehand of small, medium, or large, and if your base size is 30mm, for instance, you can pass though them all with no trouble, but if your base is 50mm, you can only pass through large doorways.
   

I'm not a fan of completely ignoring doorways, but I can see the point of not making dealing with doors a big thing in the Minis game. I'd bet the RPG has specific rules for it, though.

[ChimaeraGW]

Thanks for all of your help!

I decided to go with a 1"=3ft scale and created an outhouse "prototype" to see if it looked right. I'll post the pics shortly

[Omenbringer]

Considering the additional height of the base it looks about right though perhaps a bit to wide (personal preference of course).