Hans Abuse

[Stinkmunk]

This is the problem with the combo. First we're talking about 3 models total, with 2-3 activations needed to set it up. So in a perfect world Hans needs an 11 Crow to get the condition then a decent card to shoot. The DM then needs a 5+ to pine box him. Tara then needs an 8 to Whisper, then an 11 Crow or 11+Stone to get the condition. She is then attacking with Sh5, or throwing more 8s to use Han's rifle instead. So were looking at needing half your hand at moderately high cards along with clearly telegraphing your plan to your opponent over two activations.

It's actually not that bad at all. What Hans does in his turn is not relevant, it's not part of the combo. My only point is that he still gets to take his full, unmodified turn before the combo goes off. He loses almost nothing. You spend one AP from your Dead Marshal to put him in the box (so you need a 5). Tara needs to cast Whispers from Darkness (she needs an 8) which lets her cast Smile (needs an 11 and a stone).

Her shot is better than you're giving it credit as well. Even without spending a stone or a high card, Tara has 6 AP over the course of the turn and only two are needed for shooting off the upgrades. She could easily use her first activation to get into a decent position and Focus, and then use her second activation to Whisper/Smile, shoot, shoot. Or even Whisper/Smile, Focus, Shoot if needed.

So if I'm running this, I don't spend anything on the pine box (if I screw it up I can try again with the Dead Mrshal's second AP, or even with another Marshal depending on the list) so I just need an 8, a face card and a stone. To shoot once at Sh5:+fate and once at Sh5.

When second turn comes around, Tara activates first and Hans is already in the box. If it's important to me I can Whisper/Smile, Shoot, Shoot again, needing an 8 and an 11 and a stone to do so. If not, Tara does whatever he wants a normal. Later that turn Hans gets out of the box and has his full turn.

In terms of cost of combo though, it's not accurate to say that Hans' total cost is spent on the combo since he doesn't even lose any of his AP to execute it. The 'cost' is really the 8, the 11, the stone, one AP from Tara to Whisper/Smile and one AP from the Dead Marshal to box the sniper.

With the Avatar thing settled (I totally missed that line on page 56), the biggest threat is removing something your opponent has built his list around, such as Maniacal Laugh or some such.

[DireTrollJake]

The only thing I truly hate about it is as Dracomax said. It breaks the upgrade system.

Saying that you can buy upgrades to play models the way you want to....or that upgrades will be used to 'fix' weaker models then introducing a model that removes that is just bad.

But, as was also said, this has all been said before.....including by me. So I won't talk about it anymore.

I loathed Jack Daw in 1.5.....thought he was stupid and broken and ruined the game for me....if I saw Jack I just wouldn't play......my LGS guys knew that so no one played with Jack.

Hans will just be my new Jack Daw.

lol, really? An annoying or powerful model makes you just cross your arms and pout?

Jack Daw was good in the right hands, which was rare, but by the time they saved him a few times they had no hand and you went for their master....only takes some extra thought and planning. Same for Hans, bring a bigger gun, or someone that can speedball to his size of the table and take him out...BAM 9 points lost.

[dgraz]

lol, really? An annoying or powerful model makes you just cross your arms and pout?

Jack Daw was good in the right hands, which was rare, but by the time they saved him a few times they had no hand and you went for their master....only takes some extra thought and planning. Same for Hans, bring a bigger gun, or someone that can speedball to his size of the table and take him out...BAM 9 points lost.

If I thought Jack was just annoying I wouldn't have a problem. I knew how to play against him and what he could do....but I felt that he was broken. Just like no one wanted to play against pre-cuddle Dreamer, or Hamelin. Hans is a little different in that he isn't necessarily broken, but he breaks a core mechanic that determines how I enjoy playing the game. I don't believe that his ability is all that good, or reliable, or that I wouldn't be able to deal with it...it's the principal.

Either way, disagreeing with me does not give you the right to belittle me or my opinion.

[DireTrollJake]

If I thought Jack was just annoying I wouldn't have a problem. I knew how to play against him and what he could do....but I felt that he was broken. Just like no one wanted to play against pre-cuddle Dreamer, or Hamelin. Hans is a little different in that he isn't necessarily broken, but he breaks a core mechanic that determines how I enjoy playing the game. I don't believe that his ability is all that good, or reliable, or that I wouldn't be able to deal with it...it's the principal.

Either way, disagreeing with me does not give you the right to belittle me or my opinion.

Sorry if you felt belittled, but welcome to the internet, where tone and inflection is assumed.

Regardless, I guess it just caught me by surprise with you being a long term player and well known name around here to boycott the game over difficult pieces. I never once turned down a game, uphill battle or not. Heck, my first tournament with all gremlins I took out Hamelin piloted by a good player. Dreamer was a paint in the butt as well, but not unstoppable. But, I never really understood this mentality in any game. If I felt the game had pieces that ruined it completely I wouldn't play, not just turn down players that enjoy the models I am scared of. (Maybe it's just coming from a competitive MTG background where...well...that's just everywhere)

Again, sorry if you felt belittled by a forum post, was not meant to harm you.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Its great that you won't refuse a game, as has been pointed out a game is a social contract, and if both players aren't going to have fun, why even do it. For Dgraz Hans, on principle, is something that will cause him to not have fun, and so in anything other than a tournament he is perfectly within his rights to politely decline to play a game containing him.

[dgraz]

Regardless, I guess it just caught me by surprise with you being a long term player and well known name around here to boycott the game over difficult pieces. I never once turned down a game, uphill battle or not.

I'm human....I have my quirks like everyone else (maybe more than some). But you're still misunderstanding me...or maybe projecting some kind of childishness on me. I don't mind an uphill battle....hell, I played an all beast Marcus crew for a year, mostly against a really good Seamus player....do you know how hard it is to play an ALL melee crew against Undead Psychosis?

Broken and difficult are two different things....you don't agree that he was broken....okay. That same Seamus player also has a Kirai and a Hamelin crew that he played once or twice each but then collected dust because he felt dirty playing them and no one liked facing them......same with Jack......no one liked to play with or against those models (in my meta) so no one played them.

If something ruins you're enjoyment of the game, why would you play it. Brokeness annoys the hell out of me.....I can't stop thinking about it....even if I were to somehow kill Jack in turn 1, I would still be thinking about him the entire game and how stupid I think he is. If others in my group did not agree with me then I would find a way to overcome my issue with a model.....I think Colette's 'jump across the board and turn your most expensive model into a mannequin then escape any retaliation' was broken and stupid as hell....but one of my guys loves her, so I face it.

Edit: Ninja'd by Fetid....thanks Fetid. You pretty much summed up my much more long-winded post.

[mythicFOX]

And let's get back to discussing Hans now shall we people?

[Malicte]

In my personal experience with Hans so far, I haven't even bothered shooting off an upgrade. It just takes too much setup, and his point value is too high, and a lot of times the impact just wouldn't be enough. I like his Disarm trigger, and I think that inhibiting a major piece for a turn is probably just as big an impact or bigger than shooting off upgrades.

[JimTullis]

Someone mentioned shooting off "Shattered Heart". My Question is since the Upgrade is no longer in effect, will Her exchanged "Ice Mirror" come back?

I'm fairly certain it should, but I want to double check.

[rgarbonzo]

Yes she loses the Shattered Mirror Ability and gains her Ice Mirror Ability back since they were exchanged, they would exchange back. So she would get a refund of Ice Mirror

Edited August 26, 2013 by rgarbonzo