Cornelious1424 Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 Listened to most of the podcast, must say I'm a little dissipointed in the overall tone of the episode. I understand your feelings towards the new edition. My play test group went through a rough patch where we all almost rage quit and moved on from the game. Since then, we've taken a step back and have actually learned to like the edition. Also, I went through the same thing with WHFB 8.0 when it was first released and have pretty much stop playing that game all together. Sometimes change is bad, but I think you guys could have done this episode with a little more maturity, IMHO. I agree with some of your points, but the overall tone and child like snickering at some of your opinions made the episode a little bit of a tough listen at times. I'd say I went into this as a person with an opposed political mindset, listening to the thoughts an opinions of the other side. I gave it a shot. It's unfortunate to say this, but if this is the future of Gamers Lounge episodes I don't see my self tuning in too much anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PierceSternum Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I was happy to hear Gamer's Lounge back on the air. I look forward to hearing more. I find it difficult to reconcile my being on the fence about versions with the fact that I agreed with 95% of the podcast. In hindsight, I suspect my being on the fence has more to do with wanting to know I can still ever play than anything really specific to M2E drawing me over M1E. (Although yay for Pre-Measure!) As far as any inter-personal issues between Wyrd staff and its customers/henchman/fans, I'd love to hear more details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbird Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I must have missed the meeting that said people who were unhappy with the changes had to stay silent and absolutely not release material that dared not kiss the collective posteriors of Wyrd. Bill and Spencer are unhappy with the changes made to the game. As both have resigned as Henchmen neither owes Wyrd a damn thing. You don't have to agree eith them but you sure as hell don't have the right to moan about them not saying what you want to hear. They were open from the first minute with how they felt - if you get your panties so bunchec up over their opinions why did you listen.? I never said they needed to "stay silent" or needed to "kiss the collective posteriors of Wyrd." There are ways to voice your opinion in a constructive way in a public forum. This episode came off as just venting and hating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PierceSternum Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 There are ways to voice your opinion in a constructive way in a public forum. This episode came off as just venting and hating. It seems it came off that way to you. I enjoy watching people's reactions to political speeches. I do not need to be told in advance who is a republican and who is a democrat as their reactions to the speech clearly paint what "ear" they were listening with. Bill is and always has been snarky and sarcastic. In the past it was about people complaining about imbalances in things he had felt he could regularly beat or about rezzer whining about being under-powered or about any number of any other things. Now, since this edition is so emotionally charged FOR THE LISTENERS, they hear hate where they used to hear sarcasm and snark. I did not hear him discussing this any differently than anything else with the sole difference that some of his sarcasm was reserved for a particular individual rather than a group of people such as whiny rezzers. But, YMMV... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbird Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I have not listened to the podcast regularly for years, and have no emotions about the new edition at all. I basically came into it as a "new" listener wanting to learn more about M2E. Instead for the first hour+ all I heard were variations on "we hate this game" without a reason why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helm Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I have not listened to the podcast regularly for years This probably has something to do with why you didn't appreciate this one. As PierceSternum says, what you have in this episode is fairly indicative of Bill Anderson's style and how he reacts to things that he does not agree with. There were reasons stated for a lot of what was said. Some of them aren't too clear and require a bit of searching and appreciation of the background and personalities involved, but they're there the vast majority of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalcyonSeraph Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 This probably has something to do with why you didn't appreciate this one. As PierceSternum says, what you have in this episode is fairly indicative of Bill Anderson's style and how he reacts to things that he does not agree with. There were reasons stated for a lot of what was said. Some of them aren't too clear and require a bit of searching and appreciation of the background and personalities involved, but they're there the vast majority of the time. Yeah, but in the past Bill had two other people there, and rarely did all three agree on stuff, so there was some back and forth. This episode did come off as "Lets vent about stuff we hate while no one is here to present another side". Bill doesn't have any responsibility, to Wyrd or anyone else, to be fair and balanced, of course - he can record whatever he wants. But to me at least, someone who DID listen to Gamer's Lounge regularly, it definitely came off as two hours of childish whining. Some didn't even really make sense. They scoff at how supposedly difficult Flank deployment is. Then they admit Corners is easier now than before, and Bill makes a snarky comment about how people apparently couldn't measure a square, when just a second ago they were all over how impossible it is to measure two rectangles for Flank. And then Spencer says it doesn't even matter because he will only play Standard, but wishes he had played the old versions because he's somehow sure it would have been better than the new ones. I will admit though that I never expected anyone to have thematic story reasons for disliking premeasuring, that was a new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtank Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 And anyone who actually listened to the cast or followed Bill's blog...or this thread... would know that this was the "case for the prosecution" episode, with a defence podcast to come. All of this whining should make the upcoming "community" episode interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalcyonSeraph Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) And anyone who actually listened to the cast or followed Bill's blog...or this thread... would know that this was the "case for the prosecution" episode, with a defence podcast to come. All of this whining should make the upcoming "community" episode interesting Not really. It's going to be an episode about how the poor persecuted people who don't like M2E were treated badly by the mean old fanboys and how Bill was run out on a rail by the mustache twirling evil new powers-that-be at Wyrd. Edit: That sounds quite hostile, I realize. But I used to really enjoy GL and it was far and away the best Malifaux podcast around. But if people listened to that episode and think it was just Bill being his normal snarky self and not a few hours of self-serving whining and mean-spirited jabs at Mack and Justin, then they and I listened to different podcasts, clearly. Edited July 23, 2013 by HalcyonSeraph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehter Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 If anything, the first fifteen minutes I was actually able to sit through made me like M2E more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) Edit: That sounds quite hostile, I realize. But I used to really enjoy GL and it was far and away the best Malifaux podcast around. But if people listened to that episode and think it was just Bill being his normal snarky self and not a few hours of self-serving whining and mean-spirited jabs at Mack and Justin, then they and I listened to different podcasts, clearly. I think we must have, because all of this complaining about the podcast feels massively out of proportion to the problems with the podcast. Yeah, it was very negative, but I felt they supported their negativity. I agreed with some things, disagreed with others. But it certainly didn't seem like whining to me, nor mean spirited. Edited July 23, 2013 by Dracomax spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judgeman Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 But if people listened to that episode and think it was just Bill being his normal snarky self and not a few hours of self-serving whining and mean-spirited jabs at Mack and Justin, then they and I listened to different podcasts, clearly. Clearly, you and I did listen to different podcasts. @ Nix I find myself currently living on the opposite side of the country from you, so my trips to the DC area are not as frequent as they used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbird Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 As someone who has played 2e, but not payed attention to the public beta feedback, could someone explain to me why some people feel so negatively about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalcyonSeraph Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 As someone who has played 2e, but not payed attention to the public beta feedback, could someone explain to me why some people feel so negatively about it? This is a pretty loaded question, as this podcast and the reactions to it show. Some people don't think the level of overhaul that was done was warranted. Some dislike specific changes. Some hate the upgrade system. Some simply don't like change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nix Posted July 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 Not really. It's going to be an episode about how the poor persecuted people who don't like M2E were treated badly by the mean old fanboys and how Bill was run out on a rail by the mustache twirling evil new powers-that-be at Wyrd. That sounds like a fun show to record.... *grin* @Halcyon your location lists Washington DC, have we ever actually met? ---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 AM ---------- Clearly, you and I did listen to different podcasts. @ Nix I find myself currently living on the opposite side of the country from you, so my trips to the DC area are not as frequent as they used to be. @Judgeman thats a shame. PM me at some point (if you like) and let me know where your located. I travel a fair amount and have a couple stops on the other side of the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherSpencer Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I think the next episode will come off less negative. We have already spoken on what we didn't like. Art is something I love about malifaux and there is some great art in the new range. Community will be both positive and negatives. We have both have seen fracturing in our local groups, but I have also seen a rise in interest of the game. I am also getting more games of m2e in hopes that my views change. I will be flipping for deployment to give them a proper chance as well. I look forward to talking more about my experiences and what has changed for me after them. Bill and I both took long breaks from the game hoping to come back and enjoy it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PierceSternum Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 Not really. It's going to be an episode about how the poor persecuted people who don't like M2E were treated badly by the mean old fanboys and how Bill was run out on a rail by the mustache twirling evil new powers-that-be at Wyrd. . WIth stupid and baseless comments like that about people that have done far more for the community than you ever will it would be understandable if he did. But he won't because that's not how he is regardless of how forgetful some members of this community seem to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalcyonSeraph Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 WIth stupid and baseless comments like that about people that have done far more for the community than you ever will it would be understandable if he did. But he won't because that's not how he is regardless of how forgetful some members of this community seem to be. Has nothing to do with what he's done for the game and community in the past. He's done a lot. Like I said, Gamer's Lounge was the best Malifaux podcast out there, for a long time, and he was a hugely vocal supporter of the game and introduced a lot of people to it. I have been to a tournament he ran. No one is claiming that he didn't pour a lot of time and effort into the game and the company. Right up until there were changes he didn't like, and since then he's done some things that are in fact harmful and divisive to the community, and I think those are fueled by personal conflicts and he blames that divisiveness on the new edition or on Mack and Justin and I think that's not fair or true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbird Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 This is a pretty loaded question, as this podcast and the reactions to it show. Some people don't think the level of overhaul that was done was warranted. Some dislike specific changes. Some hate the upgrade system. Some simply don't like change. So basically, no good reason. The overhaul was certainly warranted for 2 big reasons. First, the game had gotten too cumbersome, too many rules, too many models, with no room to grow. Secondly, the game was already—even from book 1—too complex for casual gamers, and therefore limited its audience. I can't tell you how many players dropped it because it was way too complicated for them. You can't blame Wyrd for wanting to grow the player base, which this will. Some dislike specific changes? That's just nitpicking, based on subjective opinions. Guess what, I never liked playing against 25% of the masters in 1.5 as it was, and there are a million rules changes I thought would make it better. That doesn't mean the game was not great. Game designers put in a lot of work on this stuff, and there's a process they go through you have to respect. They did an open beta, which they did not have to do, so everyone got a chance to give input. Just because YOUR input was not heeded to the extent you like does not make the designers WRONG. Some hate the upgrade system. I don't like the upgrade system either. But so what? I also don't like schemes, alternative deployments, and 10 other things. In any game system, there will always be things you don't like. Do upgrades ruin the game? Absolutely not. Don't like them? Don't take them. Some simply don't like change. Including me! I'm old, I have time invested in learning these rules, and don't want to be bothered. But the game is still essentially the exact same game it used to be. All they did was simplify it, and in the process got rid of a bunch of abilities few ever used anyway. The benefit of that is clear to see- a more accessible game, more players, and a better future for Malifaux. I have faith that if something is really wrong with 2E, they will change it—just as they did change the Dreamer, Hamelin, etc when those needed fixing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalcyonSeraph Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 So basically, no good reason. If that post is addressed primarily to me you are preaching to the choir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbird Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I assumed as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PierceSternum Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 There is a lot of that lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 OK, seems things are spicing up a bit here and everybody should calm down a bit. Bill has all the right in the world to say what he thinks and feels, specially in his own channels (his blog and podcast). He did the episode by popular demand afterall. On the other side, there is quite a bit of hostility in there, I fail to see how others haven't noticed this. His hostility doesn't seem so much based on the rules themselves as much as how his current relations stand with Wyrd. I have no idea what happened, so I won't even pretend to guess who is "in the right" on that front, but it makes every ounce of sense to me that it taints his vision of everything, specially with all the passion he has poured into the game. It's not like a big number of us here haven't gone into a big hate diatribe about Games Workshop for example. Also, last time I checked, Bill not represent wyrd nor has been crowned king of the internet, so his comments do not validate, nor deny anyone's vision of M2 in the same way that I have 0 official sway on what people think of it. He still can voice them to his hearts delight the same way many members of the forum have been sharing their visions from both sides in the forum in the last months. So basically, play nice, try to understand where everybody is coming from and the baggage that comes with it and lets not be hostile for hostility sake. Yes, we can disagree (quite heavily in fact) but keeping a semblance of respect for both parties. Also, accept that some people are pretty entrenched in their vision and insisting on bashing them on the head with your arguments will probably only make them more defensive, and yes, this goes for both parties, so if an exchange starts to get heated, get away from the keyboard and go to something else (yes, I'm also guilty of getting too riled up). ---------- Post added at 01:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 PM ---------- There is a lot of that lately. Well, both sides have their own congregations after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PierceSternum Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 Right up until there were changes he didn't like, and since then he's done some things that are in fact harmful and divisive Fact, eh? Lol. Go fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 You know, this is starting to sound like politics-- Person 1:Nothing he says is true! It's all just opinion, or not worth talking about! Person 2: They are ignoring our points because they are incapable of seeing truth! and then Malifaux became yet another thing not to be talked about in polite company... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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