Free M2E stats cards in pdf format are worth fighting for .. don’t You think so?

[Yardeg]

but rather the direct risk they introduce to their Intellectual Property by releasing the rules and models for free. Especially with Vassal or gamers who don't mind proxying.

That risk is already there, one dude and a scanner/phone is all you need to get the rules on the net.

In regards to proxing:

I can buy one or more faction decks and proxy like a maniac, never purchasing a single wyrd model if i wanted to. The question is whether i'm still playing malifaux or some wierd amalgamation of warhamahordeshido.

Also is there anybody willing to play against my awesome proxy crew i greated using some washers and the odd office supplies + glue?

Malifaux isn't only the rules and stats, it's foremost the models because thats what you see on the table.

Edit:

Actually i'm pretty sure Wyrd would make the most bucks by dropping the statcards from all future packs. Simply because these cards cause a huge amount of costs by the additional logistics needed to get them in those packs. Selling them as singles on the Website increases this problematic even more (Warehouse cost, space for 300 different cards in various amounts, etc.).

Edited May 3, 2013 by Yardeg

[Gensuke626]

To answer the op's question: No because we're probably going to get get stats in the Public Beta and in all honesty a freebie like stat card PDFs is not worth "Fighting" for. Asking for, and perhaps trying to negotiate for, yes. But not actually fighting for. We're all supposed to be friends here and I'd rather not see Maths stab Hadoken cause he doesn't agree with the other's point of view.

And anyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi! :Smug_Puppet2:

[Forar]

Whew, glad we got THAT out of the way.

[Voodoo Specter]

@Stadon its not arbitrary maths it was a massivly oversymplifyed example of how Wryd will make more profit on selling their models than they will the cards followed by a statement that if they buying public is any thing like me they will use any money saved on buying cards on buying minatures instead, seeing as Wyrd have already stated that they will make the cards as affordable as possible I think it is more than reasonable to think the profit margin on minatures is going to be higher than cards.

Also using myself as an example again I won't be buying any non Neverborn WP4 or lower models to go with Zorida until V2 is released as I will have to buy a whole faction deck or shell out loads in shipping for a replacement card to use them and im guessing Markus, Levi, Hoffman and Nicco players will be thinking the same

[CreepingDeath]

Selling them as singles on the Website increases this problematic even more (Warehouse cost, space for 300 different cards in various amounts, etc.).

The other problem with that is wyrd's shipping costs overseas and how ridiculous they are. Thus the reason people want pdf or actual conformation that card faction packs will be available world wide.

I myself just got back into the game and just after getting new models 2nd edition is announced. So now I am no longer sure keeping them is a good choice unless i know i can get a card pack when 2nd hits that i don't have to pay mass postage. If Wayland games, firestorm etc are going to get the faction packs and wyrd tell people so a lot of minds will be at ease. While wyrd are currently tight lipped i hope they announce something soon

[Stadon]

@Stadon its not arbitrary maths it was a massivly oversymplifyed example of how Wryd will make more profit on selling their models than they will the cards followed by a statement that if they buying public is any thing like me they will use any money saved on buying cards on buying minatures instead, seeing as Wyrd have already stated that they will make the cards as affordable as possible I think it is more than reasonable to think the profit margin on minatures is going to be higher than cards.

So you're saying "Man, Wyrd is making something that they could charge us a lot for, but are not actually planning on charging us a lot for, therefore they should give it to us for free"?

Again, all of your certainty is predicated on the assumption that you are completely right about how profitable a course of action will be without actually having any data on it. If it is, in fact, more profitable for the company to give away the pdf, then sure, they should do it. If it's not, then they shouldn't. Plain and simple. The point here is that random people making up random numbers doesn't bolster their case either way, because the numbers are meaningless.

[HoboDevil]

I'm sure it's already been stated a zillion times, and I apologize for being redundant. However, I am happy to buy the faction decks and I see them as a good thing for newer players and whatnot too...(And I am really friggin poor, so it's definitely not because I can willy-nilly purchase.) I don't have all the models, and I constantly fear buying "Model X" because I am poor and if it sucks or I hate how it plays them I am just boned. Having the faction deck lets me know what I am buying, which rocks.

Also, printing off all the stat cards (At least in color) would be lower quality and probably cost more than just buying the decks to begin with...

Now, if Wyrd sees this post and wants to buy a heap of used laminator sheets, feel free to buy them from me. I accept pretty much any currency. Even the imaginary kind.

[mythicFOX]

+1 to HoboDevil, I waste far too much money on metal and plastic I never use.

I myself just got back into the game and just after getting new models 2nd edition is announced. So now I am no longer sure keeping them is a good choice unless i know i can get a card pack when 2nd hits that i don't have to pay mass postage. If Wayland games, firestorm etc are going to get the faction packs and wyrd tell people so a lot of minds will be at ease. While wyrd are currently tight lipped i hope they announce something soon

Why would Wyrd need to announce a product is going to be released in the UK specifically? We've got everything else they've released, and without a major lag behind the US.

The point here is that random people making up random numbers doesn't bolster their case either way, because the numbers are meaningless.

I work for a large organization and every project we do starts with random people making up random numbers to bolster their case. In fact it's virtually part of my job description. :-P

[Fetid Strumpet]

Psst MythicFox,...

345743, I just made that up, now use it! *wink*

[Stadon]

I work for a large organization and every project we do starts with random people making up random numbers to bolster their case. In fact it's virtually part of my job description. :-P

You're bad, and you should feel bad. :Smug_Puppet1:

[decker_cky]

Also, printing off all the stat cards (At least in color) would be lower quality and probably cost more than just buying the decks to begin with...

Doubt it. If you print multiple per page, and took them to a print center, they would be as high quality as the files Wyrd gave out and the paper you choose, and probably cost no more than getting them from Wyrd.

But I think there should certainly be an option to buy them regardless.

[mythicFOX]

You're bad, and you should feel bad. :Smug_Puppet1:

You know they call me the Malifaux Devil in the UK right? :-P

I should feel bad, but these toy soldiers don't buy themselves, so I guess I'll keep making up numbers for them and they'll keep paying me.

Edited May 3, 2013 by mythicFOX

[Gruesome]

It just keeps going around and around... They will or will not lose money...

Its just such an odd concern to me in a world filled with scanners and photocopiers...

Why does ANYONE buy models today?

Buy the book and you are DONE...

Heck, BORROW your friend's book and you are DONE...

Everything you need is waiting for you at Kinko's for less than $5...

Yet all these companies stay in business...

Could it be that people like the models?

Go figure.

[Danube]

Doubt it. If you print multiple per page, and took them to a print center, they would be as high quality as the files Wyrd gave out and the paper you choose, and probably cost no more than getting them from Wyrd.

At which point I would ask why you would even bother going through the aggravation.

I'll buy the decks whether or not you can grab free PDFs, but I can see the other point of view. As a new-ish player who frequently has to reference enemy cards to understand how abilities work, I would prefer my opponent have the cards as well. Passing phones/tablets, ratty sheets of paper across the table doesn't see very.... elegant?

[SpiralngCadavr]

Doubt it. If you print multiple per page, and took them to a print center, they would be as high quality as the files Wyrd gave out and the paper you choose, and probably cost no more than getting them from Wyrd.

But I think there should certainly be an option to buy them regardless.

I seriously doubt that printing a single run of digitally printed cards would be the same quality and price as the cards wyrd would put out...

Either way, yeah, personally, I'd only be using digital cards for reference or as a temporary solution until I had the funds to buy the decks again. Wyrd deserves money for their material products, but, like I've said, I think that digital decks can only help them keep up interest.

[CreepingDeath]

Why would Wyrd need to announce a product is going to be released in the UK specifically? We've got everything else they've released, and without a major lag behind the US.

They don't. I live in the UK thus why I specifically asked about the UK.

As to the reason, well what uk based company can I buy cards from currently should I want them? I'm not being an ass I just would like to know if I can get the cards in the UK or not when mk2 hits

Edited May 3, 2013 by CreepingDeath

[Voodoo Specter]

So you're saying "Man, Wyrd is making something that they could charge us a lot for, but are not actually planning on charging us a lot for, therefore they should give it to us for free"?

Again, all of your certainty is predicated on the assumption that you are completely right about how profitable a course of action will be without actually having any data on it. If it is, in fact, more profitable for the company to give away the pdf, then sure, they should do it. If it's not, then they shouldn't. Plain and simple. The point here is that random people making up random numbers doesn't bolster their case either way, because the numbers are meaningless.

What I am saying is if they are making almost no profit on them then what is the harm in giving it away for free also all of my statments have been predictions and theories I have based on what I have heard and the spending habits of me and my friends and I have clearly stated thisis the case in my posts. I don't know what gave you the impression that I am so certain about anything because I really am not I just wanted to put forward my prediction that giving away free rules will benefit everyone and to think that getting money for everything you produce isnt always favorable to giving somthing away and making more profit. The numbers I produced were in answer to some one else as an example of where giving somthing away for free would be beneficial.

All of the above is just my opinion I have littl to no evidence I can provide to back it up and may very well be incorrect but its still worth considering by Wyrd, Malifaux players and the table top gaming community at large

Edited May 4, 2013 by Voodoo Specter

[HoboDevil]

Don't forget that it's extremely relevant to at least break even rather than just give something away. I don't think it's so much an issue of "Let's make a tiny profit!" so much as "Let's make enough money to print more!"

(Also, in like six years when 3D printing becomes easily accessible and cheap enough to do often...Do you think threads like this will pop up for models? I'm lookin' at you, Mindless Zombies! Hehe...)

[Forar]

If 3D printing becomes that common, I imagine it'll already be a huge Intellectual Property mess as companies strive to throw giant piles of money at Apple to keep 3D scanning apps off itunes for as long as possible.

Perhaps this thread is a bit too focused on the slightly... adversarial nature of the OP/title, but as I (committed a Big Block of Text) commented on, there are shades of grey present. Personally, as an end user, I wouldn't fault Wyrd for trying to break even or even earn a profit off a product. I don't expect them to sell Wardens at cost, why would I fault them on cards.

However, there are less tangible benefits such as community outreach, garnering good will, reputation, name, etc, that are also hard and often expensive to build up. These too are considerations, and have even led to companies selling products at a loss (short term or long term) for a variety of reasons, be it trying to court new/existing players, expand market share at any cost, or acceptance that one product can be sold at a loss while others in the line can reap vastly higher profits per unit, balancing out in the black overall (example; some Consoles have been sold at a loss, whereas console software is generally a decent profit for all involved, assuming enough units are sold to cover development, production and distribution).

Maybe it's just a matter of perspective, but I see it as less "fighting for pdfs, rawr, FREEEEEEEDOMMMMMMM!" and more "hey, Wyrd, company whom I have spent untold portions of my disposable income on buying the entire Guild line and roughly 1/3 of the Arcanists, any chance that during this transitionary phase you might be able to hook a brotha or sista up a little along the way while I likely aim to snag your books and cards and new figures and etcetcetc?"

They don't "owe" me anything, but as we debated untold times during the Gencon threads and Through the Breach threads, that sword cuts both ways, so rather than lash out in an offensive/defensive approach, why not instead view it as "look, we're both in this together, what can we work out that keep you profitable and us up to date and playing happily?"

[HalcyonSeraph]

During the transitionary phase you will be getting free open playtest versions of the stats.

[Forar]

During the transitionary phase you will be getting free open playtest versions of the stats.

Which I'm sure will be heavily Subject To Change.

[kenshinio]

I know how it went with PP when they changed editions.

For quite a long time we had free pdf versions of the cards available. So we didn't have to buy all the fraction decks at once.

At the moment I have decks for all the fractions I play, but to buy them it took me about 2 years as I was buying them one at a time, from time to time. But I still could play the fractions I didn't have the deck for. If there haven't been this free pdfs I would just have a lot of paperweight that wasn't good for anything else. I would probably sell them and never bought anything new for this fractions. It could also antagonize me to the company altogether. Would it be a loss for the company? I guess, it would.

In my opinion it's the same with Wyrd. That's why I'm in for the free pdf. I'll most likely buy the fraction decks, but at a slow pace. It doesn't hurt so much to buy one deck and some minis once every few months as it would hurt to just buy 4 or 5 fraction decks at once

One more thing. Some people stated that releasing pdf with cars would be benefiting proxing people. Tell me, does anyone believe that such person would buy fraction deck if there wasn't pdf? Come on, seriously? If I prox my crew I would buy fraction deck for it?

[mythicFOX]

They don't. I live in the UK thus why I specifically asked about the UK.

As to the reason, well what uk based company can I buy cards from currently should I want them? I'm not being an ass I just would like to know if I can get the cards in the UK or not when mk2 hits

I understand why you asked, wasn't intended as an attack on you.

From what I've read these are going to be sold in packs as a product and therefore I would expect them to land on shelves in the UK as with any normal Wyrd product. Stocking faction decks makes sense for a retailer as most existing Malifaux players are going to want at least one new deck ASAP when 2E lands. That rush of sales and incidental purchases that come with them will make faction decks good sense for retailers. If we have any problem getting them I expect it to be them selling out quickly.

I cannot imagine any UK retailer wanting to stock individual stat cards, now or in the future. It's very fiddly for little to no return. Which is I suspect the reason you can't buy individual cards from anyone other than Wyrd right now, it's just doesn't make economic sense to the retailers.

All IMO.

[Gorbad]

If I prox my crew I would buy fraction deck for it?

I don't see why not. It depends entirely on why you proxy. If its just to avoid spending any sort of money then Wyrd is unlikely to see much anyway, but the reason I have proxy monies is because I don't love all the Wyrd models so I use a different model I like better. So yes, I use various proxy models and I'll be buying the decks for everything I play. So I'm looking at Arcanists, Neverborn and Outcasts. If we use the price of a War machine deck (I got no idea if it will be the same) that would cost me RRP £36 to get all the rules for every miniature I play with and professionally made play aids that makes playing much easier. Sure, its 'hobby money' that doesn't buy you any miniatures but is it money less well spent because of that?

[kenshinio]

I think everybody proxes a model or two from time to time. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion. I was talking about someone that proxes whole crew. I don't think someone like this would buy the card deck.

As for the other part of Your post - I never said it's money less well spent. But it's all metal. I prefer to buy minis than cards. If I wanted cards, I'd play MtG or something