Free M2E stats cards in pdf format are worth fighting for .. don’t You think so?

[CreepingDeath]

I can't really see why on earth they wouldn't sell them through the normal international distributors?

I pretty much expect to pick my faction decks up from anywhere in the UK

Solely to how they do cards just now where you have to pay astronomical postage. I don't see why they wouldn't either but I would rather know for sure as it'll be a huge help to know

[HalcyonSeraph]

To everyone saying you are opposed to paying several times for the same thing: It's not the same thing. It's a new edition.

If you want to keep your 1.5 cards and continue playing 1.5, you are welcome to. No one is going to come take your cards away. You don't have to pay for anything again.

If you want to play 2.0, you need to buy the 2.0 materials, and since you don't have to get new models, you instead need to get the new book and new cards.

[DeleteAccount]

To everyone saying you are opposed to paying several times for the same thing: It's not the same thing. It's a new edition.

If you want to keep your 1.5 cards and continue playing 1.5, you are welcome to. No one is going to come take your cards away. You don't have to pay for anything again.

If you want to play 2.0, you need to buy the 2.0 materials, and since you don't have to get new models, you instead need to get the new book and new cards.

Pretty much this. Just to keep things straight, I'm not saying releasing a pdf is bad, I'm just saying that Wyrd doesn't really have to do it and giving them flak if they decide against it is kind of a dick move, since at a base level, it's what's expected. If they decide to release pdf form, than horay, great for them and for all, but that's going the extra mile, not the minimum expected. I'm just asking people to not move artificially the "what is expected bar" simply because Wyrd tend to be pretty cool guys and since they are cool guys they always have to do the coolest to keep being cool.

[Forar]

It is time to make some estimation.

There will be two faction decks for two waves of introducing models into IIed. Each will cost 8$ (some peoples give that numbers previously in discussion).

So all cards for my one faction will cost 16$. I need 6 faction decks - so I will have to spend almost 100$.

If I'm not mistaken, the person who gave us "$8 per deck" stated that they flat out made up a number. We currently have no idea how cheap or expensive these things will be.

As noted though, I'd support them being a little more costly (still reasonable of course) if they were plastic, and thus don't need sleeves or lamination (which cost extra anyways) in order to use dry erase markers on them.

[Guy in Suit]

If I'm not mistaken, the person who gave us "$8 per deck" stated that they flat out made up a number.

Wow, someone actually reads what other people say on the internet, digests it, gathers their thoughts and replies instead of running off on wild tangents about nothing. Well done sir!

I also would save money buying plastic cards than paying to get them laminated/buying a lamination machine.

I think a free .PDF is the right call from a business standpoint - they are at a tipping point where malifaux will either continue to grow or stumble, and getting as many eyeballs on their ruleset as possible is the right call.

However I will be arsed if I show up to a tournament and my opponent expects to play with a printout of a .PDF o_0

[Ryu]

Wyrd will make the right call here but I'd rather pay $8 or whatever and have the game stay profitable than get Free cards that will cost me about or above $8 to print myself anyway.

If people are taking my arbitrary $8 sum as word of law I am both flattered and amazed - that hedge is in there for a reason. I have no knowledge of how much decks will cost and that was, indeed, an arbitrary number thrown out.

The point still remains, I'd rather not see everything released as a PDF. I do agree a small subset of PDFs would be beneficial, that's what helped me switch from interested observer (bought a few models, a book, etc) and into a full Malifaux wargamer because I now knew exactly what some of the other factions brought to the table.

Giving everything away for free is a bad idea though, leaves the consumer with nothing they need from you except pretty art. No thanks.

[caen]

Why are You stated that 1.5 is so different from 2.0 p - difference is very small, to be exact is 0.5.

For me 2.0 is a further errata of 1.0.

If the creators stated that system need changes to develop further it is very good - but why I have to pay for it?

I read very carefully cards and labels on by MalifauX model. No model have warning: This model and this stats cards can be used only in first edition of our game. Not one model.

I think that I have bought a product: model + stats cards. And I think that I deserve free support for my beloved miniature company: WYRD.

And I really hope that I will gain this free support … and for WYRD it will be great investment in my loyalty and my future miniature shopping.

[Gorbad]

And no one is going to take that product away from you. You can still continue to use exactly what you have bought for as long as you like and however you want. That is not changing at all.

However Wyrd is releasing a new product and if you want that you might have to pay for it. They are under no obligation to provide you with any material they might make in the future because you in the past bought something from them.

[HalcyonSeraph]

For me 2.0 is a further errata of 1.0.

It's not. It's a new edition. Same feel and same GAME, but enough of a difference that every model needs re-done. This is not simple typo fixing and formatting differences.

I think that I deserve free support

I found your problem.

[Csonti]

...

Oh My God... Please, somebody lock this thread. Unfortunately this is not even funny, like a certain person's ragequit was quite a few months ago.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Oh My God... Please, somebody lock this thread. Unfortunately this is not even funny, like a certain person's ragequit was quite a few months ago.

Buckle up, dude. We're not even close to peak silliness.

[SpiralngCadavr]

I think that there is an argument for free support. In short, people who get a version for free are more likely to eventually buy it (statistics can be twisted, but the general numbers I've heard is demoing causing people to buy gains far more than sales than those lost by people who would have bought but don't, so the company's not losing sales and is generating good will.

And, no, I don't think 1.0->1.x is the same as 1.x->2.0. At least in all cases I've seen, 1.x versions are updates and revisions that could be covered by a fat stack of errata, while 2.0 is different enough that things aren't compatible any longer.

Wyrd went an amazing extra mile to do the card exchange program when they were new, and I think that anyone who thinks they should be required to do that needs to take less (or more) of whatever they're on, but I do think that there's a reasonable argument for free (even if not complete) versions of the rules that goes beyond "me me me!" to good relationships with the people who are buying your product, considering how little is sacrificed and how much is gained by doing so.

[Gorbad]

Certainly, I can see arguments for it. It might even be a good business decision, I have no way of really knowing so I'll leave that in the hands of people who might actually know something about it (or at least are making the decisions). I know I looked at the free rules for Malifaux before I got into the game and similar with Infinity.

However the thread/OP basically just comes across as feeling entitled to whatever he wants for free because he wants it. I think that's the thing that rubs people the wrong way.

[Csonti]

I think that there is an argument for free support.

Yes there is. And it was stated in this thread a gazillion of times in many forms. I think Wyrd "got it". It is now their turn to do something. (And as a profit oriented company they should make or more likely already made this math even without this thread.) Either they will make it all avalaible for free or not. Either they will announce it shortly or just when they release 2.0. We shall see sooner or later, no need to beat a dead horse even more dead.

[Malovane]

I think a free .PDF is the right call from a business standpoint - they are at a tipping point where malifaux will either continue to grow or stumble, and getting as many eyeballs on their ruleset as possible is the right call.

I imagine they'll continue to provide the rules in pdf form as they do now, unless they decide to include a set of quick start rules in every starter box. I imagine that if and when errata is needed for cards - that subset of cards will again be available for free online. That's basic post-release product support - providing free corrections and fixes. Providing all the stat cards and upgrade cards for old models free does not strike me as a smart business move. That's a lot of development time to revamp the rules and rebalance every existing model. Not a cheap effort. This is no longer post-production errata; its a new release, so I don't find it unreasonable to expect to pay to update all 7 of my factions to 2nd edition. If they do provide free pdf cards, great, but it screams of false entitlement to expect and/or demand such of Wyrd.

If the creators stated that system need changes to develop further it is very good - but why I have to pay for it?

Seriously?? How about because it costs a great deal of time and money to not only develop a revamped set of rules but to rebalance and modify every model for those new rules. That is not a trivial cost. Providing rules errata to fix and correct what is broken is one thing, to provide free rules for every model is an entirely different situation. The two cases are not equal.

Buy a car. If there is a defect in the car that requires a service recall, it will be free. That is post-release support such as card/rules errata or free software patches to fix bugs. If something breaks due to wear and tear, you expect to pay a maintenance fee to replace everything that's broken and keep the car running and usable through the years. This is equivalent to updating to a new edition - you keep your core but freshen it up so it continues to be usable. Alternatively, you don't do any maintenance and grind that car into the ground - ie: continue to use 1.5 rules - it won't be as pretty or polished, but its still functional - just like a junker of a car. Finally, a new model of the same car comes out, you expect to pay for it. This is equatable to the release of new plastic starter kits. They are nice, but probably not necessary.

[Ryu]

Let's ask questions rather than give answers then.

When Microsoft comes out with Word 2015 (or 2016, whenever they feel like it...), will it be free?

No.

Why not, it's just an evolution for Word 2013!

Iron Man 3 just came out, why isn't it free? It's just the next step after Iron Man 2!

Do you now see how ridiculous your assumption sounds?

If not, I'll answer it for you on behalf of the majority of replies to this thread:

VERY

Edit: Yes this post was a bit rude, I apologize.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Ryu

[Darguth]

I imagine they'll continue to provide the rules in pdf form as they do now, unless they decide to include a set of quick start rules in every starter box. I imagine that if and when errata is needed for cards - that subset of cards will again be available for free online. That's basic post-release product support - providing free corrections and fixes. Providing all the stat cards and upgrade cards for old models free does not strike me as a smart business move. That's a lot of development time to revamp the rules and rebalance every existing model. Not a cheap effort. This is no longer post-production errata; its a new release, so I don't find it unreasonable to expect to pay to update all 7 of my factions to 2nd edition. If they do provide free pdf cards, great, but it screams of false entitlement to expect and/or demand such of Wyrd.

Seriously?? How about because it costs a great deal of time and money to not only develop a revamped set of rules but to rebalance and modify every model for those new rules. That is not a trivial cost. Providing rules errata to fix and correct what is broken is one thing, to provide free rules for every model is an entirely different situation. The two cases are not equal.

Buy a car. If there is a defect in the car that requires a service recall, it will be free. That is post-release support such as card/rules errata or free software patches to fix bugs. If something breaks due to wear and tear, you expect to pay a maintenance fee to replace everything that's broken and keep the car running and usable through the years. This is equivalent to updating to a new edition - you keep your core but freshen it up so it continues to be usable. Alternatively, you don't do any maintenance and grind that car into the ground - ie: continue to use 1.5 rules - it won't be as pretty or polished, but its still functional - just like a junker of a car. Finally, a new model of the same car comes out, you expect to pay for it. This is equatable to the release of new plastic starter kits. They are nice, but probably not necessary.

These are not at all comparable scenarios. This is not maintenance. A 2nd Edition is essentially a new product, just derived from a previous one.

When you bought your 1st edition rules and models, you were sold exactly that. You were not sold ad nauseum tweaks and maintenance. A company chooses to do that, and you can vote with your feet/wallet if you don't like it. However, the product they sold you is still exactly what you paid for originally. You can still play with your 1st edition rules and models, no one is taking that away from you.

[Gruesome]

This entire thread seems to boil down to two mindsets...

1. That giving away rules and stats for free will make many people that would have otherwise bought the models/cards not buy them and Wyrd will lose money.

2. That giving away rules and stats for free will introduce more people to the game than would have checked it out otherwise and that will eventually sales that might not have happened otherwise and that maybe some people that could potentially quit the game with the new version might not. (I have no idea whether anyone will quit. I hope not.)

From a business perspective, you either believe #1 or #2...

Everything else is varying degrees of argument about those two concepts.

If no one's mind can be changed about what they believe, then its pointless to continue the discussion

Edited May 3, 2013 by Gruesome

[Gorbad]

Actually, I don't think that's the argument at all. It's a related discussion point, but the argument to me is are we entitled to free rules from Wyrd and are they greedy if they charge for them.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Let's ask questions rather than give answers then.

When Microsoft comes out with Word 2015 (or 2016, whenever they feel like it...), will it be free?

No.

Why not, it's just an evolution for Word 2013!

This is mostly an analogous argument, though the only time I buy newer versions of older software is when I actually need them...

Iron Man 3 just came out, why isn't it free? It's just the next step after Iron Man 2!

Do you now see how ridiculous your assumption sounds?

If not, I'll answer it for you on behalf of the majority of replies to this thread:

VERY

This argument is what's ridiculous, because it isn't at all analogous. This is like saying,

"If you saw a banana on the ground and said 'hey everybody, look at that weird looking bear,' people would call you an idiot, hence, your statement that trees and bushes kinda' look the same makes you an idiot."

If you actually wanted to make a movie analogy, I'll help out:

"If I paid $8 to see Jurassic Park 15 years ago, why should I need to pay again to see it in 3D?"

I think that's the point you were trying to make :/

[Ryu]

Shh, don't point out logical fallacies! Yes, the Iron Man example was a bit ridiculous.

Anyway, that post was a bit rude. It's just frustrating when people expect things, that were never promised mind you, for free just because.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm with Gruesome. The two points of view is pretty spot on. Since I don't have access to the data they use to make decisions, and I have no financial risk associated with their choices I don't think I've got any real ability to attempt to influence their decision.

You either think it would be a good business move or not, and you either have the research or training to back that opinion up. If you don't have the data, training, and personal risk associated with the decision I don't think your argument one way or another means anything.

Wyrd is certainly aware that their customers would like things for free. Everyone likes free things. Wyrd could ship product to give out free stater boxes to everyone at stores if a potential customer asked about Malifaux, that doesn't make it a good business decision. Those arguing for things for free, and that it would help their business could be 100% right, but without, as I said before, the data, training, and personal financial risk associated with such a decision, your arguments don't hold weight, one way or the other.

[Gruesome]

Actually, I don't think that's the argument at all. It's a related discussion point, but the argument to me is are we entitled to free rules from Wyrd and are they greedy if they charge for them.

But what difference does that make?

And why would Wyrd care if customers and potential customers feel "entitled" to things.

I guess I am off base but I thought this was about whether its a good idea or not to release the rules and stats for free.

You seem to be saying that its really about talking about our "feelings"?

No thanks, Nancy...

[Gorbad]

Because as Fetid Stumpet said, we don't have any of the information etc. to assess whatever it would be a good business move or not. I have no way of voicing an informed opinion on that aspect of things. So it's all a big mix of "I think" and "I've seen" anyway so we are already talking opinions. And an important point of the thread seemed to be the feeling that we were entitled to this for one reason or another. Now that kind of normative discussion people can have an opinion on because it's discussing an aspect of (gaming) culture so people are going to weigh in.

[Fetid Strumpet]

In a deserve sense, then no, I don't think anyone just flat out Deserves the new rules for free in this case.

If you buy an iPod on Tuesday, and on Wednesday Apple announces and releases the next generation of iPod you don't deserve to automatically get the new version.

If I bought the Legend of Zelda: A link to the past when it came out, and then 4 years later they upgrade it in a new edition, again I don't just flat out deserve to have the new edition simply because I have a copy of the old.

Plus unless there are brand new individuals, and there certainly could be a few of you, and to you I honestly mean no disrespect, it's not exactly as if new editions are totally unknown in this hobby. It's pretty standard business practice. I'll let you in on a little secret, assuming Malifaux retains enough popularity to continue to grow and expand, and assuming 2.0 is a success, there will be a Malifaux 3.0 some day. No telling when it will happen, but I'd be willing to place some money down that it will happen. It is the nature of pretty much all successful hobby games.