Holy poop, malifaux 2.0!

[i_was_like_you]

Why get rid of those models? They already fall under the named model rules, whre they can't be fielded with their other versions. Some of us still prefer using the minion versions, at least in their mercenary capacity.

[HalcyonSeraph]

Why get rid of those models? They already fall under the named model rules, whre they can't be fielded with their other versions. Some of us still prefer using the minion versions, at least in their mercenary capacity.

The named model rules were written specifically for those two models, there are no other examples in the game of two models being the same person, and they felt that the added complexity of having a rule just for two models was not worth those two models being in the game. So they will not be getting 2.0 stats but are instead legal to use as alternate models for the Master versions, according to Justin/Mack.

[Utterkhaos]

I understand getting rid of the minion versions in the new edition. I mean just by a fluff point Hamlin isn't Hamlin the rat catcher anymore and Misaki isn't the mercenary minion she was she has bigger things to do now

[i_was_like_you]

Which I hope they do so that I can just buy card sleeves to protect the cards instead of paying to laminate them.

You can buy sleeves or toploaders for the cards now, instead of laminating them. Most sports cards stores and sites offer them. The toploaders tend to run about $10 for a 25 pack.

Shrinking the cards, moving master abilities to extra upgrade cards to keep track of, isn't necessary. Drop that picture that takes up a quarter of the stat card, put the available upgrades on the card, and highlight / fill in the dots of the upgrades selected. For tourneys, jot them on the sheet along with strats and schemes, to keep everyone's integrity.

[noneshallpass]

No Zoraida/Collodi-Crews anymore...? :'-/

[i_was_like_you]

The named model rules were written specifically for those two models, there are no other examples in the game of two models being the same person, and they felt that the added complexity of having a rule just for two models was not worth those two models being in the game. So they will not be getting 2.0 stats but are instead legal to use as alternate models for the Master versions, according to Justin/Mack.

So far. If we're upgrading the current henchmen to masters, then that's more named models with two versions. Being able to keep VonSchill, henchman, running along side henchwoman Hannah, in a Brawl, under two masters, would be phenomenal. And it's already supported under the Brawl rules. The only problem so far has been that there is only one henchman per special force, so no second henchman could be hired.

Just because the events of the metagame fluff have progressed, does not mean that our skirmishes on the table are happening during one time period or another. Aside from the Event itself, a lot of what we see tranpire, and the new characters we've seen revealed, were happening off camera. We just finally see them because they've crossed paths with the models we do know.

[Jewomie]

No Zoraida/Collodi-Crews anymore...? :'-/

I am actually happy about this because i was underwhelmed with Collodi, and now that he is a master, i might be able to get some more enjoyment out of him. i thought his sculpts and everything were amazing. With less hiring restrictions he and Kaeris will probably have a better time on the tables.

[Forar]

You can buy sleeves or toploaders for the cards now, instead of laminating them. Most sports cards stores and sites offer them. The toploaders tend to run about $10 for a 25 pack.

I've had issues with the cards being a few mm too big or oddly shaped and not quite fitting sleeves. Tried with two packages of different types and then gave up and just used my friend's laminator. Laminate sheets aren't cheap, but the boxes of 100 we've been buying last a while (obviously depending on how many new figures you're buying regularly) and make the cards a little thicker and all but indestructible.

Now, if they go standard card sized I would be able to just buy clear Magic: the Gathering card sleeves which is fine by me, though I do share concerns with being able to axe that much information from the masters.

I do like the idea of keeping the same size cards and then using the extra space to have the upgrades listed and just check marking the ones I'm using each game with a dry erase marker, as I do with Wounds and temp abilities like Poison and Slow.

[HalcyonSeraph]

So far. If we're upgrading the current henchmen to masters, then that's more named models with two versions.

No, it isn't. Current henchmen are becoming masters. They are not keeping the henchmen versions as well. Henchmen means something different now, the Special Forces system is going away.

[Jewomie]

So far. If we're upgrading the current henchmen to masters, then that's more named models with two versions.

That isn't how i see it though. There wont be a 2nd edition Von Schil henchman. he'll just be a master. and therefore since his master version doesn't exist in 1.5 and his henchman verson doesn't exist in 2.0, there really isn't a crossover. I'm actually pretty excited about this. not because i dislike Von Schil, but because i feel like the old henchman were good when hired, but lacked something when leading. I hope to see that change as Kaeris and Collodi were great pieces i just din't like hiring them into a crew when they could have been leading it.

edit. drat, i was beaten to the punch!

[JayBarlekamp]

So far. If we're upgrading the current henchmen to masters, then that's more named models with two versions. Being able to keep VonSchill, henchman, running along side henchwoman Hannah, in a Brawl, under two masters, would be phenomenal. And it's already supported under the Brawl rules. The only problem so far has been that there is only one henchman per special force, so no second henchman could be hired.

except von schill isn't a henchman anymore, he is a master so there is only one version of von schill in 2nd ed. Henchman is the title given to non-master named models (can use SS apparently, can lead a small crew, get 2 upgrades)

[noneshallpass]

I am actually happy about this because i was underwhelmed with Collodi, and now that he is a master, i might be able to get some more enjoyment out of him. i thought his sculpts and everything were amazing. With less hiring restrictions he and Kaeris will probably have a better time on the tables.

Ah! I was sad, because I did not paint Collodi yet and therefore never played him with Zoraida but intended a large crew of both. This won't be possible anymore.

But I did not realise that Collodi would lose his Special Forces restrictions!

Sounds good!

Sounds very good!

[i_was_like_you]

I am actually happy about this because i was underwhelmed with Collodi, and now that he is a master, i might be able to get some more enjoyment out of him. i thought his sculpts and everything were amazing. With less hiring restrictions he and Kaeris will probably have a better time on the tables.

Those restrictions added to their appeal. Their limited options, as henchmen, made them shine all the more. Collodi received the Effigies to boost his hiring options. Kaeris received Mei Feng's box set, Willie, and the Rail Golem. The added choice of running them with a master made them even more versatile.

I'm all in favor of keeping the henchmen versions (even modified for 2.0) as well as having the master versions. Sometimes you feel like a nut. Sometimes you don't. Let the players make that decision for who and how they want to hire these characters, keeping the Named Model Rule intact so Collodi can't have a puppet of himself running its own little puppet show.

[Jewomie]

well, i don't know that he will lose them, it's just a thought. but as masters, i feel like they should lose them.

---------- Post added at 12:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 PM ----------

Those restrictions added to their appeal. Their limited options, as henchmen, made them shine all the more. Collodi received the Effigies to boost his hiring options. Kaeris received Mei Feng's box set, Willie, and the Rail Golem. The added choice of running them with a master made them even more versatile.

I'm all in favor of keeping the henchmen versions (even modified for 2.0) as well as having the master versions. Sometimes you feel like a nut. Sometimes you don't. Let the players make that decision for who and how they want to hire these characters, keeping the Named Model Rule intact so Collodi can't have a puppet of himself running its own little puppet show.

well, i understand about the restrictions, and i actually loved that part. But I never felt like Kaeris herself could carry the master roll. She was always a better support piece for me. i liked to hire her into a crew. It wasn't a lack of minion options that i had a complaint about.

Edit: i realize how my last post read, i apologize. those were actually two separate thoughts.

[i_was_like_you]

I've had issues with the cards being a few mm too big or oddly shaped and not quite fitting sleeves. Tried with two packages of different types and then gave up and just used my friend's laminator. Laminate sheets aren't cheap, but the boxes of 100 we've been buying last a while (obviously depending on how many new figures you're buying regularly) and make the cards a little thicker and all but indestructible.

Now, if they go standard card sized I would be able to just buy clear Magic: the Gathering card sleeves which is fine by me, though I do share concerns with being able to axe that much information from the masters.

I do like the idea of keeping the same size cards and then using the extra space to have the upgrades listed and just check marking the ones I'm using each game with a dry erase marker, as I do with Wounds and temp abilities like Poison and Slow.

I'd have just trimmed the cards (even if that meant cutting them apart at the fold to do so) before going the laminating route. With my metric sh..ton of stat cards, I haven't had one that didn't fit in the toploaders I use.

Can barely track things like poison or slow on the huge ones now, what with having to write it out. Maybe keep the bigger size, and put boxes for those states (and the amount of poison counters, etc.) right on the card for easier tracking. Those I would be fine with having symbols for. This means it's poisoned, that means it's slow, this means it's paralyzed. Blight, burning, etc.

[decker_cky]

I think those types of restrictions should be reworked into synergies if possible. You can make kaeris take M&SU members and assets either by saying that's all she can take, or with synergy. Either make M&SU members boost kaeris, or have kaeris boost M&SU members. Rasputina is well written in this regard - she has models she works well with, but there's other models that work better to support her sometimes.

[i_was_like_you]

except von schill isn't a henchman anymore, he is a master so there is only one version of von schill in 2nd ed. Henchman is the title given to non-master named models (can use SS apparently, can lead a small crew, get 2 upgrades)

So, does this mean that named crews, like the Ortegas and the LaCroix, will suddenly all be able to use soulstones (and receive upgrades) like they're the Showgirls? While other crews are just fielding unnamed minions numbers 1 - 4, except for maybe one or two, like Sam or Sebastian for example?

There'd be no reason not to take all named models at that point.

[Gorbad]

You see the same thing with the book two masters. They can use everything from their faction, but there are certain types of models they much prefer to bring so mostly people will bring that limited pool. Incentives are better than restrictions I think.

So, does this mean that named crews, like the Ortegas and the LaCroix, will suddenly all be able to use soulstones (and receive upgrades) like they're the Showgirls? While other crews are just fielding unnamed minions numbers 1 - 4, except for maybe one or two, like Sam or Sebastian for example?

There'd be no reason not to take all named models at that point.

As far as i've been able to make out henchmen cannot use soulstone. It means they can have two upgrades (along with enforcers I think?) where as minions can only have one but that's it in a normal game. In addition they can lead small games where masters wouldn't fit but it adds no additional functionality to master lead games.

[Jewomie]

I think those types of restrictions should be reworked into synergies if possible. You can make kaeris take M&SU members and assets either by saying that's all she can take, or with synergy. Either make M&SU members boost kaeris, or have kaeris boost M&SU members. Rasputina is well written in this regard - she has models she works well with, but there's other models that work better to support her sometimes.

I like where you're going with this. i think it's a great idea. Like Colette and her showgirls for instance? yes yes

[i_was_like_you]

I think those types of restrictions should be reworked into synergies if possible. You can make kaeris take M&SU members and assets either by saying that's all she can take, or with synergy. Either make M&SU members boost kaeris, or have kaeris boost M&SU members. Rasputina is well written in this regard - she has models she works well with, but there's other models that work better to support her sometimes.

Maybe something along the line of Dues Paid? If Kaeris runs the M&SU models, they have their Dues Paid, costing 1 less, but if not, they cost normal? If Rasputina tries to run something that would fall under her Special Forces: "Cult of December" their Dues are paid, but other models she hires cost the regular price?

[JayBarlekamp]

So, does this mean that named crews, like the Ortegas and the LaCroix, will suddenly all be able to use soulstones (and receive upgrades) like they're the Showgirls? While other crews are just fielding unnamed minions numbers 1 - 4, except for maybe one or two, like Sam or Sebastian for example?

There'd be no reason not to take all named models at that point.

I can think of lots of reasons, not the least of which are: SS cost of named models, limited SS pool to share between all of them, the lessened power of SS use in duels.

[i_was_like_you]

You see the same thing with the book two masters. They can use everything from their faction, but there are certain types of models they much prefer to bring so mostly people will bring that limited pool. Incentives are better than restrictions I think.

So more synergies like Colette's Showgirls or the Dreamer's Nightmares, which, in and of themselves, might as well be Special Forces?

As far as i've been able to make out henchmen cannot use soulstone. It means they can have two upgrades (along with enforcers I think?) where as minions can only have one but that's it in a normal game. In addition they can lead small games where masters wouldn't fit but it adds no additional functionality to master lead games.

That part I might like. I've been wanting to run mini scraps of like a Witchling Handler and some Stalkers. But if they only extend it to folks with names, and not just logical choices like the Handler, then I still won't get that chance.

---------- Post added at 01:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 PM ----------

I can think of lots of reasons, not the least of which are: SS cost of named models, limited SS pool to share between all of them, the lessened power of SS use in duels.

Crews like the Ortegas and the LaCroix are already taking named models right out of the box, though.

So for the beginning player, buying a brand new box, and being told, Malifaux is great because you can play a crew box with little or no additional models needed, only to find out that either their new crew, if all named, has far too many options to take in during one sitting, or has too few options to use after having a few games under their belt. Either way, there's quite the disparity.

[HalcyonSeraph]

So, does this mean that named crews, like the Ortegas and the LaCroix, will suddenly all be able to use soulstones (and receive upgrades) like they're the Showgirls? While other crews are just fielding unnamed minions numbers 1 - 4, except for maybe one or two, like Sam or Sebastian for example?

There'd be no reason not to take all named models at that point.

There are 5 types of model in 2.0:

Masters (3 upgrades)

Henchmen (named uniques, can use soulstones, can lead SMALL crews, 2 upgrades)

Enforcer (named uniques usually, cannot use soulstones, 2 upgrades)

Minion (1 upgrade)

Peon (no upgrades, equivalent to Insignificant in 1.0)

So the Ortegas will likely be 1 Master, 1 Henchmen (Santiago) and the rest Enforcers.

So for the beginning player, buying a brand new box, and being told, Malifaux is great because you can play a crew box with little or no additional models needed, only to find out that either their new crew, if all named, has far too many options to take in during one sitting, or has too few options to use after having a few games under their belt. Either way, there's quite the disparity.

Again, this is basically saying "I assume they won't do it correctly". It could very well be that the upgrade system works properly and a crew out of the box works just fine at one point level without taking any upgrades, and then works at higher ones once you learn the game by taking upgrades.

So more synergies like Colette's Showgirls or the Dreamer's Nightmares, which, in and of themselves, might as well be Special Forces?

Might as well be but aren't, in that they don't use the confusing and needlessly complicated SF rules, but instead create positive incentives to use that sort of model. I take a non-Showgirl in Colette crews pretty often, for example.

Edited May 1, 2013 by HalcyonSeraph

[i_was_like_you]

The restrictions of the Special Forces, (aside from maybe the Union Miners being Assets instead of just being Members) weren't all that restrictive. Most crews only wanted either one or two of them (much like taking up to two Mercenaries), or they wanted all of them, and thus took the Henchman along (except Zoraida and Ramos) anyways.

---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 PM ----------

There are 5 types of model in 2.0:

Masters (3 upgrades)

Henchmen (named uniques, can use soulstones, can lead SMALL crews, 2 upgrades)

Enforcer (named uniques usually, cannot use soulstones, 2 upgrades)

Minion (1 upgrade)

Peon (no upgrades, equivalent to Insignificant in 1.0)

Five types, all with their own number of upgrades, seems a bit steep. Let's hope they do put all of the verbiage onto their cards so we can see it at a glance. The extra actions of Use Soulstones (and what they could accomplish), drain souls, Focus, Channel, Defensive Stance, etc., were hard enough to have new players keep track of, as they're not printed on the models.

Maybe it's just me, having read Nodwick, but Enforcer seems like it should be just below master...

Edited May 1, 2013 by i_was_like_you

[decker_cky]

The restrictions of the Special Forces, (aside from maybe the Union Miners being Assets instead of just being Members) weren't all that restrictive. Most crews only wanted either one or two of them (much like taking up to two Mercenaries), or they wanted all of them, and thus took the Henchman along (except Zoraida and Ramos) anyways.

I found that for Mei Feng, the assets restriction came into play quite often. Can't take 2 LSPA and a rail golem. Also was restricted from soulstone miners fairly often (I think Mei Feng is a master who could stand to have a bit more synergy with the living members of her crew btw).

I've seen special forces listed as an issue on crooligans too.