Pandora crew options?

[Kds54]

Hello all,

I have a Pandora crew which is just the starter set, a doppleganger, Teddy and a Primordial magic. I played in a tournament yesterday and just found it a little lacking. So I'm wondering what to add and what to drop? Any ideas and info will be more than welcome,

Cheers all

[Uttaus]

I personally use the following.

Pandora

Primordial magic

Lelu

Lilitu

2 Beckoners

Arcane effigy

Insidious madness

And now to explain why.

Lilitu and the beckoners use lure and come hither, forcing a lot of WP tests on your opponent.

Insidious madness debuffs their WP.

Lelu kills anything that gets close enough.

Primordial magic and Arcane effigy are mainly just support for Pandora, giving her 8 cards in hand each turn.

It is not a very aggressive crew, but fun to play.

[hippodruid]

Just so you know, Uttaus, Arcane Reservoir doesn't stack, so you can only have one extra card in hand as a result of it. The rest of the list is pretty good, though.

Generally with Pandora, the more Wp duels generated, the better. I like to use a few Sorrows to set up a minefield for Lure because I plan on taking advantage of Double Take with Lilitu. I also like the activation advantage a few smaller models offer, especially when they can passively deal damage and soak a few wounds for Pandora.

Other models you might look into are Wp-duel-intensive models, like Coppelius and Alps. I'm very fond of Mr. Tannen, too, even though he's more card control and less Wp.

As far as running the list you gave above, I can't speak much to it. When I picked up Pandora, I skipped on her box, and I never picked up either of the kids. I know some people are very enamored with them, but it was an aesthetic choice for me. I also wanted her alt sculpt, so it worked out beautifully.

Since it looks like you were playing a 45SS game, here's a list I might build.

Neverborn Crew - 45 - Scrap

Pandora

--

8 Pool

Primordial Magic [2ss]

• Alp
  [3ss]
  
  
• Alp
  [3ss]
  
  
• Doppelganger
  [8ss]
  
  
• Lelu
  [7ss]
  
  
• Lilitu
  [7ss]
  
  
• Mr. Tannen
  [6ss]
  
  
• Sorrow
  [3ss]
  
  
• Sorrow
  [3ss]
  
  

The main idea behind the entire list is positioning. Tannen, the Sorrows, and the Alps all rely on proper positioning before you begin luring people in with Lilitu (and the Doppleganger, if necessary). 10 activations is also a pretty decent number for a non-gremlin, non-Kirai crew at this size. If you wanted to, you could also drop Tannen and pick up another Lilitu, too.

[Zwergenkrieger]

Just to give a totally different idea for some fun games:

Pandora

Primordial Magic

Mature Nephilim

Insidious Madnesses

Terror Tots

That way you get one pretty damn fast crew to scoot around the board. Mature Nephilim is a beast in close combat and has that beautiful trigger that allows for some crowd control with a lot of WP based duels.

You can also use the grow mechanism from time to time giving you some more potent melee fighters.

An other fast and furious model is von Schill which is a good addition to that model selection.

Pandora keeps pace due to primordial magic casting her spell on her to allow pushes after succesful WP duels.

Best thing with such a crew is: your opponents won´t get angry by the fact of almost infinite use of the twins. It changes the game for both, you and your opponent, which is always a good thing.

ZK

[Uttaus]

I didnt know that arcane resevoir didnt stack. But good to know, thanks.

As for crew cost, I only play 35 stones, giving Pandora 6 stones to play with.

Now I just need to find something to replace the effigy.

[Kalkris]

My list for Pandora (35ss) is as such:

Pandora 8ss cache

+ aPandora & aCandy (2ss)

Primordial Magic (2ss)

Doppelganger (8ss)

Lelu (7ss)

Lilitu (7ss)

Sorrow (3ss)

Sorrow (3ss)

Primo casting Dementia on an uber-linked Pandora+friends is one of the best ways to move around to wreak havoc on the foe. Lelu and Lilitu are there for added offense and a Lure or two. In all honesty, the avatar is there as icing on the cake, and can be more beneficial or less beneficial based on what you're dealing with.

~Lil Kalki

[marful]

Some good things said here.

My Pandora Crew goes something like this:

Pandora 35 Soulstone Crew (5 Cache)

Insidious Madness (4ss)

Insidious Madness (4ss)

Stitched Together (5ss)

Stitched Together (5ss)

Doppleganger (8ss)

Coppelius (9ss)

IMHO, the Stitched Together @ 5 Soulstones is one of the strongest models Pandora can take. First off, Creepy Fog stops shooting lists from gunning you down. Second, Gamble Your Life Away does amazing damage (3/4/7), particularly when you add in the extra wounds for failing a WP duel (2 Wounds if you copy Emotional Trauma with the Doppleganger). And lastly, Does Not Die means that on the turn it gets gunned down, you can get an extra 2-3 WP duels off, with two of them doing serious damage. Who cares if you have a chance to lose the duel!

Another fun thing to do with the Insidious Madness (IM) is to engage a bunch of models in melee range and use Psychopathic Episodes. Every time a model wants to target the IM to hit it with a melee strike, it has to make a WP duel at a - Flip (the IM does as well, but it doesn't take wounds from losing a WP duel as it is not an enemy model), or the attack is a -2 penalty flip. It's worse if the IM is also terrifying 12. That's an extra WP duel every activation! I've tied up Guild Riflemen for an entire game with a single IM spamming Psychopathic Episodes while in defensive stance. Also, these guys grab objectives very good!

Lastly, Coppelius... what doesn't this guy do? He hands out paralyze, poison, WP duels against living (or his spell) and he can summon alps. He has a lot of wounds moderate defense and destroys low armor stuff in melee. He's almost a henchman without Use Soulstone (instead he has Use Eyeballs...)

Edited March 5, 2013 by marful

[Zwergenkrieger]

Lastly, Coppelius... what doesn't this guy do? He hands out paralyze, poison, WP duels against living (or his spell) and he can summon alps. He has a lot of wounds moderate defense and destroys low armor stuff in melee. He's almost a henchman without Use Soulstone (instead he has Use Eyeballs...)

While I agree with most statements done in your post, I cannot see the benefits of Coppelius! Yes, he´s a very nice model and that´s the reason I like to get one, but on the other hand I wasn´t able to se his strenghts whenever I read his cards. Could you please elaborate the use of coppelius?

[Omenbringer]

IMHO, the Stitched Together @ 5 Soulstones is one of the strongest models Pandora can take. First off, Creepy Fog stops shooting lists from gunning you down. Second, Gamble Your Life Away does amazing damage (3/4/7), particularly when you add in the extra wounds for failing a WP duel (2 Wounds if you copy Emotional Trauma with the Doppleganger). And lastly, Does Not Die means that on the turn it gets gunned down, you can get an extra 2-3 WP duels off, with two of them doing serious damage. Who cares if you have a chance to lose the duel!

I really like the Stitched Together more for Creepy Fog than a lot of their other nifty abilities (though those are great as well). As you point out it shuts down a lot of actions ( strikes, Charges, and well most anything that requires LOS to target) that can chew thru the crew.

I also like the Alps with her due to being cheap, providing some good Wp duels, Debuff's, and providing healing flips if needed.

[marful]

While I agree with most statements done in your post, I cannot see the benefits of Coppelius! Yes, he´s a very nice model and that´s the reason I like to get one, but on the other hand I wasn´t able to se his strenghts whenever I read his cards. Could you please elaborate the use of coppelius?

First and foremost, the #1 reason to take Coppelius is because he is just awesome.

(Dapper Coppelius! Because he desperately needed a top hat, cane and monocle...

That out of the way, some of the reasons why I think he's awesome is his AUTO TRIGGER Slumber [Long Clawed Fingers] which paralyzes a model instead of doing damage. With a WK of 6, Float, a melee range of 2, Melee Expert and a CB of 6, odds are a model within 14" isn't doing anything next turn except suffering from Poison 2. Combine this with his (0) Unhinge (which has a 3" range) and you potentially have shut down a second model in the opponents crew. If Coppelius just so happened to be closer, that gives him 1 more AP to make another attack and auto Paralyze (and Poison 2) yet-another model, bringing the total number of models negated during the next turn to 3.

You have to understand, paralyze is POWERFUL. And handing out paralyze like candy is one of the many things Coppelius does.

Another great tactic, and IMHO the reason why I think Coppelius works so great with Pandora, is what happens when he either flips severe damage, or gets his trigger Remove Eye [Long Clawed Finger] (which requires a crow) which causes Coppelius to inflict Moderate Damage of 2 (no damage flip required) and he gains an Eyeball Counter.

Because of Deeply Disturbing whenever Coppelius gains an Eyeball counter, living models within 4" of Coppelius must make a WP -> 12 Morale Duel. As you know, Morale Duels are WP Duels and the more WP Duels a Pandora crew can cause the better her game is going. In addition to causing any models who fail the WP -> 12 Morale Duel to fall back, any such models also immediately suffer 3 Wounds from Night Stalker 4.

I like to hold a high crow in my hand for the Remove Eye [Long Clawed Finger] trigger and move in on some models after I've hit them with Pandora's spell Project Emotions: Pity (- flip to WP duels...) or the models are within the effect of an Insidious Madness's Psychopathic Episodes (- flip to WP duels...). Insuring that not only do I get an Eyeball Counter, I also do 3 wounds (+1 wound from Pandora, +1 wound from Doppleganger) to 2-3 models and hand out Poison 2 to one of those models.

That means you just did 3+ wounds to potentially multiple models, you've given one of the models Poison 2, the models can't rally within 4" of the Insidious Madness and you now can use the Eyeball Counter to summon an Alp next to one of the fleeing models (preferably within 1" of them).

You then use the newly summoned Alp's 1 AP to make a melee strike on one of the models (possibly giving it slow which is ignored because the model has Paralyze, but more importantly causing another 1 Wd due to the Alps talent Feed on Dreams) or walk closer to the fleeing models. Now when those models activate, they have to first make a Wp->12 Duel from Smother, AND every time they perform a Wk or Strike action they automatically take 1 Wd.

I can do that with Coppelius, all in a single activation, and I do it almost every game I play him.

Another use for Eyeball Counters, Coppelius can use his action (0) Savory Delicacy to give himself or another model 2 healing flips. Just straight 2 heal flips; no casting of a spell, no discarding of a soulstone, just discard 1 Eyeball counter.

Lastly, any model that decides to kill Coppelius receives one last parting gift from him via The Dying Dream, where Coppelius inflicts 4 Wd on the model that killed or sacrificed it before he leaves play. This generally makes your opponent shy away from going after Coppelius with their key models.

With all of the Wp duels that Coppelius can cause, and the ability to lock down models with Paralyze AND the fact that he can cause 2 heal flips on Nightmare models (which is everyone in the crew save Pandora and the Doppleganger) AND the fact that he is a Significant model with 10 wounds, Float and a Wk of 6 (making him an excellent objective grabber), makes him an incredibly synergistic model for Pandora (or even the Dreamer).

I basically consider Coppelius a master without the Use Soulstone ability. He is my #1 favorite model in the game.

Edited March 7, 2013 by marful

[EnternalVoid]

A good rundown of Coppelius Marful but a few things to keep in mind.

If a model is paralyzed and Poisoned, they will not take any poison damage on the Activation they skip. From the Errata part of the Rule update;

"Models which have Poison Tokens don't suffer Wd or remove Tokens when they forfeit an activation to clear Paralyzed as they are not activating."

Link to the Errata

http://www.malifaux.com/Errata.php#ParalyzeC

This is basically to keep a model from being Poisoned and repeatively Paralyzed till they drop over dead. So while they will keep Poison 2, they will not suffer any damage from it till a turn they actually get an Activation.

Also on the Alps, on it giving out Slow, because the Activation is skipped/forfeited, Slow remains on the model for their next activation, so it is not lost. As per Keltheos's Ruling. Means they are doing that much less as they lose an activation and then are slow next turn.

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?20723-Slow-and-Paralyze&p=238334&viewfull=1#post238334

Some extra notes on a good rundown of a Nasty Nasty Model *Our Dreamer player loves this guy to death... sometimes literally*

[Bedknobs]

I thought that you don't even apply the poison tokens with Slumber:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/archive/index.php/t-23827.html

Has this been ruled officially?

[marful]

A good rundown of Coppelius Marful but a few things to keep in mind.

Thanks a lot for pointing this out and clarifying things for me! Turns out, I was messing up on poison on paralyzed models and not applying slow when I should! Awesome!

I thought that you don't even apply the poison tokens with Slumber:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/archive/index.php/t-23827.html

Has this been ruled officially?

I can't find any definitive answers. Here is another thread in the "Resolved Rules Section". The only thing I can find definitively is that poison is an effect and that many models deliver poison different ways.

However, we can evaluate the validity of the requirement for damage to be caused in order to apply Poison by looking at how other models apply Poison.

IF causing damage, even 0 damage, is a requirement in order to apply Poison then Candy or the Voodoo Doll would not be able to apply Poison from their abilities that do so. As you'll see, neither talent does damage:

(1) Sours: Target enemy model within 2” receives Poison 2. This action may only be taken by this model while it's Harmless is active.

Conduit: Nominate a non-Master enemy model in Zoraida’s LoS when this model is summoned. As long as this model is within 1” of Zoraida, she ignores LoS and range when targeting the nominated model with a spell. Her Casting and spell Damage Flips receive when targeting the nominated model. The nominated model suffers Poison 2 at the end of the Closing Phase. This remains in effect on this model until it is removed from play or it casts Reconnect.

Given these two abilities do no damage whatsoever, if we then conclude that damage is a requirement before applying Poison then Candy's ability Sours is pointless and the Voodoo Doll's Conduit is reduced in overall effectiveness.

Further in the case of Coppelius, Poison 2 is an effect that his weapon causes. Some weapons have effects that are only applied after they do damage, such as a Malifaux Rat's Yellow Teeth Models damaged by this Weapon gain one Blight Counter. Other weapons have effects that are applied before they do damage, such as Johan's Relic Hammer having Magic Weapon.

While I can't say definitively, I will postulate that effects that trigger after damage seem to clearly state that they do so after damage. It would be silly for Johan to perform a melee strike on a spirit and that spirit ignore the Magic Weapon ability of the Relic Hammer until after the damage is applied. Likewise with the Damage flips from things like Lilith's Greatsword (It would be pointless to gain the effect of to the damage flip after the damage flip...)

Given that Candy and the Voodoo Doll can clearly cause the effect Poison without doing damage and the fact that weapons that have abilities and effects on them apply the effects on hit (unless otherwise specified), I would have to conclude that Poison requiring damage to be done is incongruous with the current way the Poison effect is handled on other models, and how weapon abilities work in general.

[Adran]

ERRATA

Poison #

When a model is hit by an attack with Poison # or affected by an Ability with Poison #, increase the number of Poison Tokens the model has to the # indicated either after resolving the attack, or as indicated by the Ability. Each time the model begins an activation it suffers 1 Wd per Poison Token it has, and then discards one Poison Token.

From my understanding this means that being hit by a weapon that has poison 2 means that you gain it. Regardless of the amount of damage you do, the criteria is being hit.

This errata was written following those threads that Marful linked to so that is why they have different outcomes.

On a random aside, the guardians shield does a damage flip when it doesn't hit, but it wouldn't do poison in that case...

[Bedknobs]

Splendid! Thanks chaps.

[Zwergenkrieger]

@marful: great rundown on Coppelius! Thanks a lot for sharing these informations. Suddenly some new ideas for Pandora Crews arise...

[Omenbringer]

I can't find any definitive answers. Here is another thread in the "Resolved Rules Section". The only thing I can find definitively is that poison is an effect and that many models deliver poison different ways.

The definitive answer may be found in the Errata document available on the Malifaux.com website that Adran cites below (top of page 7 of the doc to be exact).

From my understanding this means that being hit by a weapon that has poison 2 means that you gain it. Regardless of the amount of damage you do, the criteria is being hit.

To confirm, Poison is applied on the Hit so would be applied even if the Slumber trigger was utilized to also apply Parralyzed as well. The Wounds recieved from Poison however would not be applied (and the number reduced) until the model was next able to activate (in the Errata Doc on the Top of Page 4).

[SilverBullet]

A Pandora crew that I often run is:

Pandora (6 cache)

Lelu

Lilutu

Stitched Together

Stitched Together

Jack Daw

It is quite a small list activation wise, but I find it works well and in many cases is pretty nasty.