Checking on Pig's Stampede

[EnternalVoid]

Alright I am normally pretty good with the rules but I got a bit of a curve ball thrown at me concerning Stampede for the pigs. This came out of someone pointing something out on Pull My Finger and me looking it up. Now I know Pull My Finger is not always right, or up to date, or what not, but I was wondering if I was either missing something or a ruling somewhere.

In pull my finger is says, when talking about Stampede and the Pig Boomerang

"remember that during Swine Dash's the pigs must push their full Cg directly toward the nearest non-pig model within LOS however may go beyond the target after the gore/nibble strike (meaning that once you have reached the closest non-pig model within LOS and attacked you can continue the push past him in a new direction and vary the distance to allow a new target)"

Someone said that the new direction is you picking another direction, as it is no longer having to move in a strait line toward's its original target *as it reached its target*. Taking a look at the PDFs of the V2 cards it looks like to me that you keep going in that direction, just that you can move past your target and keep pushing up to your Cg in that direction. Effectively a strait line just past the model. Is there something about the anatomy of this spell I am missing or a ruling I am not finding?

This might become important in our group as we recently picked up two new gremlin players and already had a few part time moonshiners lurking about.

[Omenbringer]

You definately continue along a straight line if moving passed the target. By varying the distance moved after the Swine Dash it is possible to target a new model and effectively change the direction of the next Swine Dash.

Not sure if someone edited that particular blurb after I wrote it or not (or perhaps it was just late night sentence structure). At any rate it is easy enough to fix.

Needed to go on there and fix something else in the Voodoo Doll wiki entry anyway.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Omenbringer

[rgarbonzo]

Can a stampeding pig use reckless?

[Adran]

Can a stampeding pig use reckless?

Yes, gaining Reckless is not an action, its an action modifier, so Stampeding doesn prevent you using it.

The only action you can do is the swine dash

[EnternalVoid]

You definately continue along a straight line if moving passed the target. By varying the distance moved after the Swine Dash it is possible to target a new model and effectively change the direction of the next Swine Dash.

Not sure if someone edited that particular blurb after I wrote it or not (or perhaps it was just late night sentence structure). At any rate it is easy enough to fix.

Okay that helps. Now just to clarify as I know this will come up too, what do you mean by varying the distance afterwards? I don't have the card on hand at the second but I thought it said you have to push your full Cg distance *and was optional if you wanted to pass through models.*

[Omenbringer]

Here is the relevant section from Swine Dash found in the 1.5 edition of the Malifaux book;

Target the closest non-pig model in LOS. This model must Push its full Cg directly toward the target and may go beyond the target. During the Push it may move through, but not stop on, other model's bases. If this model is in base contact with the target model at any time during this Action, it interupts the Push to Perform one Nibble/ Gore Strike against the target with a to the damage flip. When declaring the Swine Dash action this model may ignore other models in base contact with it when determining the target.

The compulsory movement distance (the Must portion) is only directly toward (straight line) the targeted model, once in base to base (and after interupting the movement to perform your Nibble/ Gore Strike) you may decide to continue any remaining movement further beyond. This reminaining movement beyond the target is not compulsory and can be varied a bit.

Swine Dashes are definately a bit more restrictive than a Pigcharge (which uses the wording "up to" instead) however you do have several good positioning options with the Dash that can be exploited for targeting. Your choices are stoping the Dash in base contact with the target on the near side of the model, the far side of the model or continuing the Push the full distance beyond. The important part here is that you decide when to interupt the Push once you are in base contact with the target (the near side or Far side as both will meet the requirement) to make the Nibble/Gore strike and then decide whether to continue the Push further beyond (non-compulsory). Each option may introduce or restrict future targets. Stoping on the near side or far side (in base contact) allows the pig to ignore that model during the next Swine Dash and also use the target (as long as you are using a Piglet and the target has a Ht greater than 1 since the increased base size and Ht of the War Pig makes this a much less feasible option) to block LOS to less desirable models. Pushing the full Cg beyond can position the pig closer to a more desirable non-pig target.

Is that a bit clearer (looking to potentially update the Wiki with it)?

Also consider the following in regards to the Pull My Finger Wiki;

• A lot of the wiki project was written before the V2 Card and/or later erratas/ Clarifications and not all of them have been edited/ updated to comply with the newer material (for example a subtle change to the Voodoo Doll's Conduit that changed one of the accepted practices with Zoraida or a clarification to the definition of unmodified that changed an accepted Gremlin Gunline practice).
  
• Entries are usually written/ edited/ updated by volunteers that have a really good understanding of the models and interactions that may cause them to gloss over some of the subtleties (since what they consider common knowledge may be dramatically different than what a newer player would).
  
• Residuals (abilties that functioned one way prior to subtle word changes from one version of an ability to another) sometimes miss being cleaned up.
  
• Writing in a clear and concise manner is much more difficult than it appears and can be hampered by several factors.

With that said I definately appreciate (as I'm sure the other wiki editors do as well) when inconsistencies or errors are pointed out, as it makes correcting them much easier (since it eliminates us having to find them).

Edited February 27, 2013 by Omenbringer

[EnternalVoid]

And that is the sort of thing I meant by anatomy of the spell. Thanks for the clarification on the stuff I was not seeing. Going to be rough once some of them get the pig list up and running. Thanks again,

[Omenbringer]

No worries always try to assist where I can. Should that description be included in the Wiki?

And yes a well run pig boomerang can definately be tough to face, as can most of the Gremlin lists. However once you understand how everything works countering it is much easier.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Omenbringer

[EnternalVoid]

I would defiently consider throwing it up on the Wiki, understanding how the Pig's Stampede works is a big part of understanding the potiental as well as the threat of the stuff. I imagine it will help some of those trying to grasp the concept.

[i_was_like_you]

Does anyone know of a good video of this tactic in action?

[Omenbringer]

I would defiently consider throwing it up on the Wiki, understanding how the Pig's Stampede works is a big part of understanding the potiental as well as the threat of the stuff. I imagine it will help some of those trying to grasp the concept.

I'll clean it up and get it posted tonight.

Does anyone know of a good video of this tactic in action?

I could be persuaded to mock up some demo illustrations using Vassal if you think it would help.

[Poggle]

That would help immensely with visualizing what the rules are trying to convey! I'm currently elbow deep in piglets trying to get them painted and would love to know what I'm doing with them once they hit the table

[Omenbringer]

Not sure how long its going to take me but I'll get some stuff mocked up and posted demonstrating some of the pig esoterics. Plan to have them up by Saturday baring this unfortunate cold getting worse.

[i_was_like_you]

Not sure how long its going to take me but I'll get some stuff mocked up and posted demonstrating some of the pig esoterics. Plan to have them up by Saturday baring this unfortunate cold getting worse.

Thanks in advance.

Ryusei, my resident gremlin player, kept looking for videos of it, but so far hasn't found any. Vassal might make things even easier.

[Omenbringer]

Is there anything in particular he is looking for illustrations of?

I am planning on showing the Pig Boomerang, Swine Dash Movements, Pig Ladders, and perhaps the Bacon Bombing Assasination Run.

[i_was_like_you]

Considering the only one of those I'm even vaguely familiar with is Pig Boomerang, I'd say all of the above.

I'm sure I could sit down and piece it all together, eventually, but there's no sense in reinventing the wheel when so many folks have it down to an art form.

[Csonti]

Here is the relevant section from Swine Dash found in the 1.5 edition of the Malifaux book;

The compulsory movement distance (the Must portion) is only directly toward (straight line) the targeted model, once in base to base (and after interupting the movement to perform your Nibble/ Gore Strike) you may decide to continue any remaining movement further beyond. This reminaining movement beyond the target is not compulsory and can be varied a bit.

Swine Dashes are definately a bit more restrictive than a Pigcharge (which uses the wording "up to" instead) however you do have several good positioning options with the Dash that can be exploited for targeting. Your choices are stoping the Dash in base contact with the target on the near side of the model, the far side of the model or continuing the Push the full distance beyond. The important part here is that you decide when to interupt the Push once you are in base contact with the target (the near side or Far side as both will meet the requirement) to make the Nibble/Gore strike and then decide whether to continue the Push further beyond (non-compulsory). Each option may introduce or restrict future targets. Stoping on the near side or far side (in base contact) allows the pig to ignore that model during the next Swine Dash and also use the target (as long as you are using a Piglet and the target has a Ht greater than 1 since the increased base size and Ht of the War Pig makes this a much less feasible option) to block LOS to less desirable models. Pushing the full Cg beyond can position the pig closer to a more desirable non-pig target.

I would like to ask for some clarification regarding the underlined part. In my interpretation if the pig choses to move beyond the target, it must move its full charge range and can't stop at the far side of the targeted model since the controler already chosed yes to the may part of the skill to move beyond target.

[Omenbringer]

I would like to ask for some clarification regarding the underlined part. In my interpretation if the pig choses to move beyond the target, it must move its full charge range and can't stop at the far side of the targeted model since the controler already chosed yes to the may part of the skill to move beyond target.

As long as you remain in base contact with the targetted model you have not actually moved beyond the target.

[Csonti]

As long as you remain in base contact with the targetted model you have not actually moved beyond the target.

Was this ever confirmed by a Rules Marshal? I can see your point but IMO the wording is at best dubious and can be interpreted in both ways.

[Omenbringer]

Was this ever confirmed by a Rules Marshal? I can see your point but IMO the wording is at best dubious and can be interpreted in both ways.

Swine Dash definately has some rather interesting wording to it that leaves a lot of room for interpretation (never a good thing).

Having read and re-read it over and over due to posting in this thread I am again convinced that it behaves exactly as it used to (when it was a modified Pig Charge vice its own thing).

The pig must Push its full Cg directly toward the nearest Non-pig model in LOS. That much we know for sure.

The sticky part however is the optional (May) movement beyond if the target is closer than the full Cg of the Pig (and allows the pig to clear the targets base). Because you have already completed the compulsory movement "directly toward" the target, any remaining movement beyond should be 100% optional to include the amount of distance moved beyond. The optional movement beyond doesn't work unless this is true since you cant continue the move to the full Cg and still be moving "Directly Toward" the target.

The sentence structure strongly implies this as well since it isn't a seperate sentence but a continuation. Perhaps Keltheos (or one of the other Rules Marshals) will wonder in here and confirm.

On a related note however the first of the Illustrated Pig Tactics (Pig Ladders and the Truffle Shuffle) is posted up Here. I'll wait on the Swine Dashes for a while until it is a bit more concrete.