Underdog Challenge

[Joel]

Hi guys,

resser minions are much maligned - so I want to make a list with the worst of the worst, at 35ss, to take to a tournament in the UK in the near future.

I need opinions on what should be included.

Currently my own thinking is:

Molly

Malifaux child

Crooligans

Guild autopsies

all need to be in the list - but which master?

any opioions appreciated.

[Gruesome]

If Molly is not leading the crew, then I'd say Seamus is weakest rezzer master for me.(Without Avatar)

And then I'd add Rafkin if you truly want an overcosted minion that has zero synergy with the rest of your list.

So here... Good luck!: ( I swapped Child with CopyCat because Child is not a rezzer)

Ressurectionists Crew - 35 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter

--

3 Pool

Copycat Killer [2ss]

Molly Squidpiddge

[9ss]

Necrotic Machine [2ss]

• Crooligan
  [4ss]
  
  
• Crooligan
  [4ss]
  
  
• Guild Autopsy
  [3ss]
  
  
• Guild Autopsy
  [3ss]
  
  
• Rafkin, The Embalmer
  [7ss]
  
  

Edited February 18, 2013 by Gruesome

[Joel]

I was thinking Seamus myself not really looking for those with zero synergy, just models that never leave the shelf

I'd have to buy most of this stuff, so getting some ideas locked down would be good. Going to create a pool of models to swap stuff in and out for strategies, so rafekin makes the list

[scuttlebut]

To add a bit of flavouring you could lightly sprinkle on a nurse or two.

Plus the Dead Doxy; it very rarely makes the cut in my Molly led crew

[Ozz]

Add the nurse to a list with the worst of the worst? I cant see how they make it, they are awesome, just need the right models to throw at her/them:) However, multiples of them suddenly becomes less useful imo:)

[Blog]

based on the threads I always see, the whole rezzer faction is maligned. But for your thread, I like the idea. It will force the nay sayers to think outside the box and actually try and prove minions are not that good.

[scuttlebut]

Add the nurse to a list with the worst of the worst? I cant see how they make it, they are awesome, just need the right models to throw at her/them:)

But then I would say the same about a Crooligan and I'm sure you'd disagree with me there. But to be honest I've never played with or against a nurse... on the tabletop that is

[Barnaberible]

Very rarely see an unsummonned rogue necro on the table (except In a Molly list) not only is it over costed, it's also a great kill prot target

[Mehter]

based on the threads I always see, the whole rezzer faction is maligned. But for your thread, I like the idea. It will force the nay sayers to think outside the box and actually try and prove minions are not that good.

Well, ya. We're the worst faction in the game.

Obviously. Or something.

[Gruesome]

based on the threads I always see, the whole rezzer faction is maligned. But for your thread, I like the idea. It will force the nay sayers to think outside the box and actually try and prove minions are not that good.

Where do you see a thread that says the whole faction is bad?

Where do you see anyone complaining about models other than:

1. Seamus

2. Molly

3. Crooligans

4. Dead Doxie

5. CopyCat Killer

6. Guild Autopsy

7. Rafkin

8. Carrion Effigy

9. Vultures

9 models out of the faction.

Where many complaints get focused is that out of those 9, 5 are either Seamus or related to Seamus crews in some way.

Feels like a strawman argument to me.

"Everyone says XXX!" (No one does)

"Here is why they are WRONG!" (Say something that many people already think)

Edited February 18, 2013 by Gruesome

[Mehter]

I like Rafkin

[Blog]

Underdog Challenge

Guild Autopsy Improvements

Helping/Fixing Molly

McMourning out done by Mortimer

Seamus and his Soulstones...

Proposed Totem/ Fixing Molly.

Seamus - the face of death buffed

How to make our Minions more competitive/balanced?

How to make our Minions more competitive/balanced?

How to make our Minions more competitive/balanced?

How to make our Masters more competitive/balanced?

How to make our Masters more competitive/balanced?

How to make our Masters more competitive/balanced?

Three Seamus Changes... Please?

This list of past threads from the first 5 pages says a lot about the mentality of rezzer players. Every time I get on the boards and click the rezzer section there is always some new thread griping about a model someone percieves as bad. I will give you that one Gruesome, my statement about the entire faction being maligned was a bit of exaggeration. But the 9 models listed all have some sort of use. whether it be for fun or competitive use.

1. Seamus: Fine the way he is. get over his cache 2, he has fast and has a 4/6/7 weapon.

2. Molly: Think outside of the box. Seriously.

3. Crooligans: " " exploit the mist and their from the shadows and you will claim objectives.

4. Dead Doxie: fantastic minion. Great summon for seamus and a great piece for a molly crew. Think outside the box.

5. CopyCat Killer: A second 4/6/7 that can give itself Terrifying 14.

6. Guild Autopsy: Get over the Cb 4, there is a positive flip on that gun. "But it doesn't drop a corpse" If you rely on corpses you still have a lot to learn.

7. Rafkin: cant say too much about him, i dont have him and I've seen no one playing him.

8. Carrion Effigy: Seriously? this is here? Object 1 Wk 5 and flight people. Go snag an objective, or even take Death after Death and poop out corpses. It works.

9. Vultures: This one I can agree with a bit. The negative to Cb on arcing things should be looked at with the next edition. Why take it at all then?

Edited February 18, 2013 by Blog

[Gruesome]

Then you think the 9 models are fine. That's cool. No skin off my back.

I listed the 9 models that I see people complain about because you said the entire faction is maligned.

It is not. Those 9 models are not thought of well by people other than you and almost every negative thread revolves around one or more of them.

Those 9 models... And 5 are related to a particular master.

THAT'S where the most complaints are.

[Mehter]

Pertaining to Rafkin, I'd say he's only effective in an avatar Nicodem list. Nicodem feeds him body counters, and in turn Rafkin saves Nicodem 0 actions. 7 Stones is quite a bit, but whatever.

[IChewSoulStone]

Underdog Challenge

3. Crooligans: " " exploit the mist and their from the shadows and you will claim objectives.

There's an issue with that... The mist requires a decent mask to get off. I've played many games with 3 crooligans where none of them were able to get The Mist off. It's just not reliable.

The other thing that's wrong with Crooligans is that we got them and Night Terrors. NIGHT TERRORS. 1 ss less, far easier and faster to capture objectives with, and even have a little more use after all objectives are done. Crooligans can work, but when you compare them to another model we can take which both have similar roles they get outshined.

[D-A-C]

But the 9 models listed all have some sort of use. whether it be for fun or competitive use.

1. Seamus: Fine the way he is. get over his cache 2, he has fast and has a 4/6/7 weapon.

2. Molly: Think outside of the box. Seriously.

3. Crooligans: " " exploit the mist and their from the shadows and you will claim objectives.

4. Dead Doxie: fantastic minion. Great summon for seamus and a great piece for a molly crew. Think outside the box.

5. CopyCat Killer: A second 4/6/7 that can give itself Terrifying 14.

6. Guild Autopsy: Get over the Cb 4, there is a positive flip on that gun. "But it doesn't drop a corpse" If you rely on corpses you still have a lot to learn.

7. Rafkin: cant say too much about him, i dont have him and I've seen no one playing him.

8. Carrion Effigy: Seriously? this is here? Object 1 Wk 5 and flight people. Go snag an objective, or even take Death after Death and poop out corpses. It works.

9. Vultures: This one I can agree with a bit. The negative to Cb on arcing things should be looked at with the next edition. Why take it at all then?

I mean this in the most non-trolling/argumentitive fashion when I say this ... but ... your obviously smoking crack (or some other recreational drug of your choosing ) to come out with that statement.

1. Seamus - No Seamus is not alright. His whole build in a very simple form has him as:

A. Tough as Nails

B. Fast

C. Has a big ass gun with great damage

The problem is:

A. He isn't tough as nails anymore and many MINIONS can now smack him around.

B. Fast used to be unique back in the day, but now compared to what other masters can accomplish in their activations he is downright slow.

C. The damage on his gun is no longer badass compared with newer models, many of whom, now surpass him in damage output and arent limited to one attack.

His soulstone cache is also a joke considering that he is entirely dependant on them for his offence, defence and (I find) his summoning. He needs all 8 soulstones and this means you are always 6 SS down when picking a crew and considering what some other crews can bring to the table for that amount, this is a severe handicap, especially considering his 'core crew' lacks in the damage output department.

He is a great Master and is the reason I play Malifaux but in terms of 'competitiveness' he has severe problems.

2. Molly - I have Molly used exactly once, and whilst she was an absolute load of fun to play with, I don't think she is well suited to being either a Henchman under another master or a Master in her own right for her cost and abilities.

I used her with Seamus, and the problem (as I theorised correctly on these boards) is that I needed an 8ss Cache for her and Seamus to split and she already costs nine soulstones, so this severely limited what else I could buy for the crew in the 35ss game. I also had problems keeping her up with the rest of the crew at times, and as I believe Gruesome once suggested on the boards, I found that there were turns when she had several options yet none were particularly effective and I ended up just doing stuff to do it rather than doing stuff that was effective and/or strategic. That is not good for a 9ss model.

As it stands she costs around 12ss considering she needs Seamus to have a full cache of 8 to start with and she just doesnt justify her heavy investment IMO for 35ss games. She is also very suit dependant. However she is an absolute blast, a great model and thematically perfect so I'll still use her whenever I can but not whe I want to definately try and win. But saying 'think outside the box' doesnt get her off the hook. YOU think outside the box and show us how brilliant she is and you'll get major props. As it stands she is good, but her crew lets her down when on her own and she is too expensive for Seamus and doesnt have a particularly well defined role in his crew IMO.

3. Crooligans- Used once, they are okay, would have preferred if I could have bought 3 and they had been 3ss each, they would have been fantastic then. Problem as I see it is they compete with Night Terrors and Necropunks, both of which are superior in the same role with different Masters (Seamus/Kirai are great using Terrors & McMourning/Nicodem would be better off with Punks).

4. Dead Doxies - Dead Doxies and fantastic don't belong in the same sentence. They are situational at best, are not easy summons (Seamus needs 10+ crow don't forget), are overcosted by 1ss, and in most situations a Belle would be just as good if not better.

You can't start with them on the table with Seamus crews, so your best bet is kill a Female Merc (thematic) bring her back (usually involves burning a SS to tranform a low crow in the 10+ needed) so thats 3ss and THAT makes them usable but not fantastic. In fact arguably having the Female Merc with Seamus for a few turns AND THEN getting a Doxy around Turn 3 makes them better lol. So they do take a little 'outside the box' thinking, but killing a female merc to get one is very thematic IMO and it makes them marginally useful. But fantastic they are definately not.

5. Copycat Killer - He is just no good and his personal scheme is useless and a waste of 2VP. If he could switch with Seamus more reliably he probably becomes a somewhat auto-include as you could have someone like Lord Chompy or Lady J bearing down on Seamus and simply have him switch about. That would also allow for great movement tricks for Seamus that would also help him out alot aswell. A second 4/6/7 that rarely goes off isn't worth 2ss. Plus considering Avatar for Seamus is a somewhat 'auto-include' he is a waste of points. He also competes with the amazingly good (too good for 1ss) Grave Spirit.

6. Guild Autopsy - Havent used.

7. Rafkin - Havent used (but model on the way).

8. Carrion Effigy - Havent used. Great looking model and in a Seamus crew were corpse counters tend to sit around for a while some healing flips might be useful. Would love to try him with Seamus, but because of Seamus' limitations (noted earlier) I never ever have enough SS to take him without gimping my crew somewhere.

9. Vultures - Havent used. They seem weak, but again. Grave Spirit is almost too good not to use.

10. (you forgot) Nurses - Drop these babes down to 4ss when McMourning is your Master and turn them from situationally useful sources of 'shennanigens' and make them into a Nurse version of a Belle (not the same abilities but rather the 'core' minion of McMourning). This would be thematically fantastic IMO. They need a complete revamp as it stands though.

Like I said, this isn't an attack, but you cant just say 'think outisde the box' or basically 'your wrong they are good' without breaking down how they are useful. People posting threads complaining about models is a fact of all tabletop games (and thankfully) most of the time they are ignored as models would end up being OP.

BUT, because of the newer released models and how they operate individually AND CRUCIALLY as part of a group, many of the original models (from all factions) are starting to pale in comparison. What is needed is essentially Malifaux 2.0 where they go back and tweek and update some of the existing models and Masters.

They need to buff things a bit and tweek them so they co-exist better with other friendly models within their crew whilst not becoming OP or autoincludes. This isn't an easy task by any means.

But having people come here and point out why they never take certain models or what it 'feels' certain models are missing is a step in the right direction.

Thankfully there are only a handful of models in the ENTIRE GAME that are actually devoid of use. The ressers currently possess arguably one or two of these (CCK, Vultures and Guld Autopsies are probably the worst offenders), but that doesnt mean that other models do not perform badly for their costs or are a bit more limited in their uses (which frustrates people and leads to accusations of them being entirely unusable).

Deep down the problems with the models you listed aren't that they are completely usesless, but rather they compete with models that are more useful. But that in turn actually makes them useless to anyone beyond fun/thematic players, because why take a model that is only useful in situation A, when you can take a model that is useful situation A AND B?

Sorry if this post constitutes hijacking the thread, I just thought that it was a response to a post that was worth making. Just to reiterate (again) its just a response to an opinion with my own opinion, not an attack.

Its more of a conversation starting post really .

[Gruesome]

Silly box-thinker.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Gruesome

[Mordeqai]

Your signature... Your signature explains so much. You don't have the mentality the other 3/5 masters share.

-Seamus is the weakest summoner of the Rezzers, the faction centered around summoning. However, offensively, I love Seamus, and find him fairly powerful in some unique ways (Note that I don't mean overall power)

-Molly's only use I've ever personally used is Soulstoning other's spells, but that takes a fair guess of cards to do.

-Haven't used Crooligans

-Dead Doxies are a Rotten Belle for an extra soulstone who have -2 Ca on Lure. However, I do love their Slow to Die action.

-Copycat is pretty useless, I agree, but a 2SS model with potential Terrifying 14 and big damage... eh. Still a bit better than most would give it credit for.

-Guild Autopsies need to drop counters. A model with 3 df, Easy to Wound 1, 3" Wk, and 1" melee needs to at least drop a Corpse C

-Your post on Rafkin kinda gives evidence to our posts on Rafkin.

-For me, the Grave Spirit is an extremely crucial totem, and exchanging him for a Carrion Effigy is completely insane.

-Vultures. Bleh. Same reasoning for the Effigy

However, I will never say the Rezzers are underpowered. You won't see me whining about a factions power level. A few models? Maybe. But never a whole faction. Even playing a Nicodem crew, I feel pretty confident against most opponents.

And please, play a few more masters before speaking for and about an entire faction. I'm not saying I'm justified to, and I'm not trying to, but you're playing two of the arguably most powerful Rezzers in game.

[Math Mathonwy]

To note a model for the OP: Flesh Construct bought with SS is a horrible, horrible minion. As a summon he's pretty OK, but in a Seamus crew he certainly is amongst the worst possible choices.

[Blog]

Your signature... Your signature explains so much. You don't have the mentality the other 3/5 masters share.

And please, play a few more masters before speaking for and about an entire faction. I'm not saying I'm justified to, and I'm not trying to, but you're playing two of the arguably most powerful Rezzers in game.

I have played ALL rezzer masters for quite a while and I at one point owned just about the entire rezzer faction. Yan Lo and Kirai are the ones that I like the most and concentrate on because of that. Between the two of them, I feel that they can complete every strategy efficiently and effectively . In the last 15 games I don't think I have summoned a single belle with Seamus and have consistently won.. He does other stuff too. I consistently win with McM to the point where it became un-fun to play with him. Nicodem I have played a few times and are considering picking up again. I think a necropunk swarm brick could achieve alot in a good amount of strategies. I loved playing and winning with molly, just because everyone says she sucks.

I know what I am talking about. :1_Happy_Puppet1:

I just get baffled every time I open the rezzer boards and see someone griping. Lol.

[Joel]

I really must learn not to supply a can opener to the interwebs...the worms are escaping!!

[Mehter]

I have played ALL rezzer masters for quite a while and I at one point owned just about the entire rezzer faction. Yan Lo and Kirai are the ones that I like the most and concentrate on because of that. Between the two of them, I feel that they can complete every strategy efficiently and effectively . In the last 15 games I don't think I have summoned a single belle with Seamus and have consistently won.. He does other stuff too. I consistently win with McM to the point where it became un-fun to play with him. Nicodem I have played a few times and are considering picking up again. I think a necropunk swarm brick could achieve alot in a good amount of strategies. I loved playing and winning with molly, just because everyone says she sucks.

I know what I am talking about. :1_Happy_Puppet1:

I just get baffled every time I open the rezzer boards and see someone griping. Lol.

I do know what you mean.

I was at GenCon this past year, and one of the workers at the Wyrd stand was talking about how bad Ressers are/how Yan Lo will save it. I hadn't played in over a year, but that in itself made me get back into the game, because apparently someone was doing something wrong.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Mehter

[Blog]

one of the workers for Wyrd said that!? Wow... maybe some see rezzers as a weak faction because everyone gripes about some stuff... Heh.. *shrugs*

Be proud rezzer players, be proud of your undeadness.

[Evilbleachman]

I really must learn not to supply a can opener to the interwebs...the worms are escaping!!

Shame on you Sir!

On Topic: If you do throw in Rafkin, might as well pick up some Guild Autopsies for S&Gs. Might help you, should you face another Ressurrectionist master.

You could always toss in a single zombie pug. Roll the whole evil master mind chair thing and pet the heck out of that little model with an evil sinister laugh.

[Rathnard]

Geez. Joel posts a thread about building a crew to challenge himself and get the most out of models that players regularly malign, and it turns into a thread about how much Ressers suck? The only thing that's missing now is Calmdown.

Back to the original post, this is what I'd suggest;

Seamus

Molly 8

Malifaux child 3

2x Crooligans 8

Guild autopsy 3

Bishop 11 (33SS)

You didn't have Bishop in your list and while I quite like him, alot of others don't rate him at all. In any case, I think his Toss/Leap shenanigans would fit into this list quite nicely, while still keeping with the "nobody likes me" theme.

Anyway, this is a great idea! I might even try it out myself. Just need Molly and some Crooligans.