Helping/Fixing Molly

[xeth1313]

So, I've been thinking, Molly seems a little underpowered compared to the other henchman. I don't think it's something that she really needs to be changed to fix. My idea was that maybe she could get a model similar to Collodi's Marionettes or Opelia's Young Lacroix. Something that could only be hired into crews containing her,(an ability named "Are you My Mommy?" maybe). Models that were limited, maybe rare 2 or 3. That way Molly would come in at about the same cost as hiring Collodi and his Marionettes, say 15 SS. Three models at 2SS a piece or 2 at 3SS each. If we give them the mist and a ability that says they counts as Crooligans for Curiosity Calls then we've even improved the Crooligans without tweeking them either, two birds with one soulstone. Another idea was that they could have an ability that says while they are affected my the Necrotic Spray it also affects Non-Ressurectionist models. Now Molly is bringing something to the table that is good for fighting Non-living crews. Does any of this seem like a good idea? Anyone have any suggestions for such a model? Maybe a good idea for a movement trick or attacks they could have, something that was useable once per crew per turn?

Edited December 11, 2012 by xeth1313

[LordZombie]

Fetid Strumpet should be in here any minute now. Until then, here is my 2 cents. I really don't think Molly needs extra models to help her in a 'Collodi and his dolls' way. Not only does this not really fit Molly's fluff, they really would not be of much help. Molly reallys need to drop a crow or two on her spells. In a crew, no, faction that needs every 7+ crow they can get, Molly's need for them doesn't leave much for any other models in her crew. No one but Neverborn are allowed to have an ability that affects all other models, but if Necrotic Spray could hurt living and dead, maybe non living, would be awesome. Crooligans would also be much better if "the mist" was a 0 cast spell. Over all, I love Molly and it would be great if she was changed up a little. She is just plain fun to play and teams up well with Seamus, she only for the fact she is a little over priced. When you compare her to all the other henchmen, that is the reason she has pitiful ablility. There is hope in that she is getting other 'horrors' soon, that is unless they were talking about Yin.

Edited December 11, 2012 by LordZombie

[MudgeBlack]

Some (or any) other 30mm Horrors (or Belles) would be nice so she has a little more summoning choices. I love playing Molly, it'd just be nice to have a few more choices. Possibly making any other Resser model (or just one per crew) hire-able but them being considered Rare 1 for Molly (like they are on loan from Seamus/McM/Nico).

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ahh I seem to have a reputation. To be honest I read this post earlier but wanted some time to think about it. I love Molly's fluff, I love the character, and I very much love the model. However Mechanically she just doesn't work, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who can convincingly argue that she isn't the weakest of all the current Henchmen by far, or that she is a competitive choice for almost any build.

If we just assume, with some justification, that an errata to her isn't going to happen, and you are wondering what I think would go some way towards "fixing" her. I'd still need some extra time to consider exactly what I think the best solution would be.

[xeth1313]

I just think it would be an elegant solution. A blister to round out her box? Not changing her at all but providing models that alter her playstyle or that of a few of her special forces. Things kinda like Yin and her Anathema. I don't mean to say the she needs a ton of movement or attack options added, but a little pack of plagued children to help with her rebellion? Ones that only work for and with her? Like how Von Schill(pretty impressive alone) and a Librarian become their own force to be reckoned with when hired together. A set of model that you hire with her and go, "Well there is my semi-independent sub-crew, just like all the other Henches"

[Gruesome]

Fixing Molly is a pretty complex thing.

I think you make a very nice first step by making Crooligans considerably better.

I still do not think she'd be great at that point, but I do think you kill two birds with one stone.

I'd also like to see the Rogue Necro cost less when she hires him.

If those things were done, she would have breathing room in which other changes to her could be considered and given the time they deserve but she'd be much better in the meantime.

[shipwreckgirl]

I think some sort of willpower tricks would go a long way towards making her viable. Perhaps something like the Watcher's ability to remove pitiful except against Immune to Influence. And it makes zero sense to me that she's so willpower reliant and only has a 5 in willpower.

[xeth1313]

I dig the remove Immune to influence thing, maybe a hard to pull off trigger? Something that when it hit, you'd squee and bring the Molly Shocking Truth pain.

[Cats Laughing]

I dig the remove Immune to influence thing, maybe a hard to pull off trigger? Something that when it hit, you'd squee and bring the Molly Shocking Truth pain.

Onryo do that already (iirc), except Molly can't take them

Give Onryo the Belle characteristic and both Molly and Seamus gain a little (but not too much, since Onryo are spirits and don't drop corpses).

No I'm not advocating this as a perfect fix.

[ravenborne]

be nice if her totem had an ability, "Molly may summon this model for only one corpse counter".

[osoi]

Onryo as Belles would be a nice solution and would help her crew composition a lot.

I use Onryo a lot when running Seamus as they help him out in the same areas Molly needs helping. Plus they provide a model that is pretty decent in melee.

[Fetid Strumpet]

No, really it wouldn't. Molly is an expensive support model. If you then need to include extra somewhat pricy extra support for your support you are spending way too many points on things that don't actually remove any of your problems from the board.

[xeth1313]

Yeah, Changing an existing model seems too complicated to me. Making the Onryo a bells would open it up to being summoned by Seamus and Molly and well as being affected by both of their movement boosts and Sybille's call belle. I don't think anything needs to be errata-ed. I really think that a new, small Molly specific horror could fix the whole kit and caboodle. Something small, that could make her more aggressive/competitive, and that had good synergy with the other horrors(mostly the Crooligans who need it.)

[Pierowmaniac]

Its her choice of models when leading that is the problem more than anything. Whilst in her supporting role Molly is a perfectly viable option for most of the other resser masters.

Admitedly She could do with a little something else, like making some of her spells easier to cast or giving her some sort of Auto crying, but I think the main issue is with her minions mostly.

Yin, although a step in the right direction, isn't going to make Molly any more competative and I'm hoping to see some new horrors in the fabled 'story encounter' packs.

As for her current Minnions I think we've discussed them numerous times on these boards but the general concensus is for the Crolligans Mist and Jumping abilities to work better and for the Rogue Necromancy to be easier to access (either through summoning or reduced cost).

For the future I'm hoping to see some sort of melee horror (An alternative to the RN and Sybelle) and also another model that can generate or expand 'The Mist' which would again go some way to improve the crooligans. Maybe one or both having Spirit or at least the same trigger that the Crooligans have.

I don't think the Onryo is key in this case, due to the same reasons Fetid Strumpet mentions. IE being a support model for a support model.

And one last comment. 'Terrible secret' is really underated for some reason? Its my go-to spelll for Molly. Helped Seamus drop two Young Nephilim in the one turn during last Thursdays game!

[Fetid Strumpet]

There are two things Molly needs herself to be a better model. She needs an extra action, and she needs to be able to have an additional suit added to her casting. I personally think she needs both, but I'd need to test if just one or the the other would do it.

Maybe a new Molly only totem that has companion Molly, and as long as it is within a certain range of Molly Molly gains Nimble, and can drop a control card to add an extra suit to Mollys cast?

[Gruesome]

There are two things Molly needs herself to be a better model. She needs an extra action, and she needs to be able to have an additional suit added to her casting. I personally think she needs both, but I'd need to test if just one or the the other would do it.

As noted elsewhere, Molly is the only model I have that I have literally had multiple moments of "sit on her hands because nothing she can do is relevant or useful".

To me, adding an extra action that I might have to just take a pass-action on is not useful. Casting expert or something like that would be great, but she STILL needs something ELSE that can always be used to take advantage of the extra AP as her current kit is capable of being "shut out".

How about something very straight-forward for starters like "Casting Expert" and her Copy spell is changed to KEEP the spell until a different spell is copied. So, when facing an immune crew, should could at least have brought a minion with some sort of spell that targets Df or whatever and copy that. (I know that she gets a crippled version of what I am asking for via her totem, but I am asking for MORE than that because if that was good enough, we would not be having this conversation)

I could see people actually HIRING Rogue Necromancy then because its not just overpaying for a glass-cannon, but its also like you are giving Molly Acid Breath. His stock would go up quite a bit in my eyes.

(And make crooligans better)

[Fetid Strumpet]

You'd be spending 19 points to get that, unless I was running Molly as a master I would never hire both Molly and the Necromancy, I'd just Run Molly with McMorning to grab Dissection. Additionally the problem with the Whispered Secret is that in addition to losing the spell when she casts it you still need a 7+ of Crows to cast it to even get the spell.

One of Molly's biggest issues is she only has 2 things she can do reliably. Terrible Secret, which is really good, but not worth 9 SS, and Shocking Truth, which can be shut down by Immune to influence, and is only really good if you channel it to get the severe paralyze. If she could reliably do everything on her card she very well could be worth her cost. I don't think it would make her as good a choice as any of the other henchman though because just being worth your cost is taking up space for the multitude of models that have come out that are worth more than their cost.

[Gruesome]

You'd be spending 19 points to get that, unless I was running Molly as a master I would never hire both Molly and the Necromancy, I'd just Run Molly with McMorning to grab Dissection.

Never said its awesome, said his stock would go up and you replied to say that you might take Molly with McMourning. Would you have said that before?

Additionally the problem with the Whispered Secret is that in addition to losing the spell when she casts it you still need a 7+ of Crows to cast it to even get the spell.

I know and with the change suggested you only need to be able to cast it ONCE because you do not lose the spell. If she cannot manage that, then melt her down and cast something else out of her.

(And make crooligans better!)

[rancor709]

My two cents. Mollys lack of a true offensive ability against immune to influence hurts her. Molys lack of ap also really hurts her. Id voice nimble as a base free action. Id xhange the rsiat on shocking truth to df and add ignore earmor. Additionally id give molly dual focus with masks and crows. Necrotic spray should be worded exactly like blackblood but for ressers. With those changes

[Fetid Strumpet]

Needing to only cast it once doesn't make it reliable, what if you don't get the crow in your opening hand? now you have to hope you even got a crow and spend a stone, hoping you don't flip too low to get the cast, and if you fail now you have to keep the Necro and Molly near each other hoping for a crow next turn, which means you are giving up a turn or more of development in order to get the spell.

Needing to only cast the spell once is great, but if that is how one were to explore fixing Molly then Whispered secret would need to be reliable. You'd need to be able to almost certainly cast it whenever you need it. And with the extra suit requirement, you can't.

---------- Post added at 08:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 AM ----------

If an errata is the path suggested then yes, rancor's suggestions are ones I've made before and think they would be appropriate. I hadn't suggested Dual Focus on her casting before but I've been mulling it over for awhile and think it would be a good solution, as at least another one of Molly's spells and a pretty decent one would become available.

[Korrosion]

Dual focused makes more sense fluff wise then a nimble undead. Then again I know making rules decisions based on fluff is a bad plan.

At least dual focused would be a short/small/easy to add errata.

[rancor709]

Giving Also wouldnt mind ap(0)gorgons inspiration:spell molly gains either a crow or mask t next castng action.

[Gruesome]

Needing to only cast it once doesn't make it reliable, what if you don't get the crow in your opening hand?

How is needing a suit any different than a majority of models in the game? In her case, unlike most, you'd only need it ONCE in the game to have your copied spell.

I think that before you could consider Dual Focus on her, you'd have to step through all the spells eventually available to her to determine whether she'd be broken in any scenarios by being able to always bring some suit to the party and that just goes back to smelling like "paralysis by analysis" to me.

(And make crooligans better!)

[PZN]

I just played Molly twice in a Seamus crew out of this reason I don't know if my suggestion is to powerful. What would you think if Mollys Undead Construction allows her to summon one Bell, Horror or the Necrotic Machine no matter about the Base size and the Corpse Counter costs depends on the Base size of the Summoned Model?

Crooligan, Bell, Totem = 1CC

Yin = 2cc

RN = 3cc

I play Malifaux just since 2-3 Month don't throw stones on me if my suggestion isn't that good! It's just an idea.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The reason that it's different is because you're reasoning that taking the rogue necro might be more common if Molly could keep the spell she steals. For that to be a good tactic you need to be able to grab the spell you want from your models on turn 1 on the first activation, otherwise you now have to dictate how your models move for the rest of the turn and following turns based on your ability or inability to grab that particular spell.

I ran Molly in close to every game I played for 9 months or so, and it was a repeated issue that anytime I included a model to grab a spell so that her totem could cast it over and over I often wouldn't have to card to grab the spell first thing, which hindered how my models could move and act in following turns. Some times I did and it was nice, but often I wouldn't and it really sucked.

That is part of why Molly isn't good. Reliability. She can do a ton of great and amazing things, but if you cannot count on being able to do any particular thing when you need it then it its not an ability central to how the model operates.

Whispered Secret if I'm remembering correctly, needs a 7+ of crows to cast. That means there is a total of 8 cards in the whole deck that will allow the cast, and in practicality there are only 4 cards you are going to want to use on it. If you get the red joker, 13, 12, or 11 you are most likely going to want to use those for something better than allowing Molly to copy a spell. So 8 cards total to use, and really only 4 that don't hurt to use... not a great trade off in my opinion.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet