Terraclips, Grids, and Pre-measuring

[Allandrel]

Malifaux does not allow pre-measuring, but the Terraclips tiles have a 1" grid. Combined with Malifaux's "top-down" measuring, this allows players to calculate the range between two points very easily.

Does this cause problems for people?

Would you object to your opponent using other pieces of gridded terrain (such as Terraclips' sibling Terrainlinx)?

[Ausplosions]

Not really.

It only effects the outcome if one player measures and the other does not.

But with Terraclips both players have the ability to use the grid which makes it an even playing field anyway..

[Kadeton]

I wouldn't say it makes range particularly easy unless you're measuring vertically or horizontally directly along the grid - most players can't calculate square roots in their heads in order to triangulate the distance to other points. Players with experience in other wargames can generally judge distances by eye very accurately in any case (I know that I have no trouble judging anything up to 12" with an accuracy of about 1/8", though it gets progressively less accurate after that).

One thing I suggest everyone try at some point is playing Malifaux with full pre-measuring. It really doesn't give any unfair advantage (in fact, it removes the unfair advantage of one player being able to judge distances very accurately) and makes the game feel more tactical.

[Allandrel]

I wouldn't say it makes range particularly easy unless you're measuring vertically or horizontally directly along the grid - most players can't calculate square roots in their heads in order to triangulate the distance to other points.

You actually don't need to calculate the square root, just keep in mind a list of squares. For example, if the hypotenuse squared is 61", its length is more than 7" (squares to 49), but under 8" (squares to 64).

Players with experience in other wargames can generally judge distances by eye very accurately in any case (I know that I have no trouble judging anything up to 12" with an accuracy of about 1/8", though it gets progressively less accurate after that).

One thing I suggest everyone try at some point is playing Malifaux with full pre-measuring. It really doesn't give any unfair advantage (in fact, it removes the unfair advantage of one player being able to judge distances very accurately) and makes the game feel more tactical.

Yeah, I've found that I generally enjoy games that allow pre-measuring a lot more - games that disallow it (like the earlier editions of the Warhammer games) lead to a lot of people memorizing the dimensions of their arms and hands, terrain pieces, etc. such that allowing pre-measuring actually sped gameplay up.

I'm working on a TerrainLinx Malifaux setup, and was considering this issue for whether to print up gridded or gridlesstiles. I really prefer gridded because those are more useful for other purposes like RPGs. But my main thought was that it wouldn't really matter. (Heck, even if Terraclips tiles were gridless, you still know their dimensions.)

[xKoBiEx]

Others are pretty much on to what I believe too... The grid is so marginal, coupled with it being available to both, that there really isn't much advantage apart from speeding up the game. I would not doubt if v2.0 had rules for pre-measuring as most games are going that way. Besides, most crews can cheat measuring by blowing one of their activations to drop a ruler across a useful portion of the table.

[Omenbringer]

Players with experience in other wargames can generally judge distances by eye very accurately in any case (I know that I have no trouble judging anything up to 12" with an accuracy of about 1/8", though it gets progressively less accurate after that).

Totally agree with this, distances of less than a foot are really easy for most people to guess (even distances up to 3 feet aren't that difficult).

However on topic, any terrain that is used for gaming can be used to assist with measuring to a certain degree (especially after it has been played on a few times). I am not a fan of premeasuring as I have found that it slows the game more than it speeds it up, especially during especially "crucial" turns.

[Sniddy]

Theres still a risk - we've all looked at an 8" range and though well that SHOULD be in, done it and been a fraction of an inch out...

And yeh - You can pretty much triangulate from memory or 'rought it' to 1/4 of inches I've used catapults in war hammer fantasy as percision snipper bullets given how I used to set out my army....standard one was X number of inches from catapult pole, standard 2 Y...you'd be able to track the change in position fairly accuratly and then be able to drop a boulder normaly on or very near your chosen target...

I never knew they were gridded, so something to keep in mind

[sharpobjects]

I would like to see the game go with pre-measuring. I have seen opponents spend a minute or so starring at the board trying to figure out in their head if they are within range to do whatever attack they have planned.

It would take seconds to measure and continue with the activation. I think people feel that someone is going to measure a half dozen different measurements on each models activation and that would delay the game. I do not beleive that would be any where near the norm. I think it would fall on average of measuring one or two distances and then making a decison.

It beats the starring at the board for what seems like at least 30 secs trying to guess the range.

[Omenbringer]

I think people feel that someone is going to measure a half dozen different measurements on each models activation and that would delay the game.

Having seen this exact thing playing other games it is what I would expect, especially in the "crucial" turns of the game. Willing to admit that it might just be my experiences though.

[Allandrel]

I would like to see the game go with pre-measuring. I have seen opponents spend a minute or so starring at the board trying to figure out in their head if they are within range to do whatever attack they have planned.

It would take seconds to measure and continue with the activation. I think people feel that someone is going to measure a half dozen different measurements on each models activation and that would delay the game. I do not beleive that would be any where near the norm. I think it would fall on average of measuring one or two distances and then making a decison.

It beats the starring at the board for what seems like at least 30 secs trying to guess the range.

This has been my experience as well. I've played Warhammer and Warhammer 40k for 20 years, and both games got quite a bit faster when they changed to allow pre-measuring.

I have seen many players spend a lot of time trying to estimate ranges, using all sorts of "tricks" and aids. Whereas measuring ranges to half a dozen potential targets takes just a few seconds.

Obviously, though, this can vary depending on people's playstyles.

[Doofus McGinty]

I'd have to agree with the general consensus on this one. I got my first Terraclips set the other day (awesome, as pretty much everyone agrees) and found it was fine. I've had a 10 year hiatus from gaming, but am still fairly confident up to about 24 inches. My wife on the other hand is a complete novice. Having the ability to kind of pre-measure evened things up a little.

Someone pointed out elsewhere on the forums that the characters are pretty skilled with their various armaments, so I think they'd generally be better at estimating range than me as the player anyway!

[Gruesome]

There was a pretty detailed discussion of pre-measure with lots of things I never thought about:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?33445-Pre-Measure

The clincher for me was that there were people with actual physical handicaps making distance judging problematic.

But interesting thoughts on both sides of the fence nonetheless. I believe that a majority of people felt that pre-measure would speed things up based upon their experiences, but there were exceptions that felt otherwise.

There was a contingent of people that felt that range estimation was a skill that should remain as a component of the game.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Gruesome

[sharpobjects]

I would like to see pre-measuring allowed for 1 year and then examine the results. We already have several years without it and our opinions have formed. I would like to be able to form a true opinion after using the pre-measure for a year. Maybe after seeing it in practice I would come to the conclusion that the game is better without it.

With Wyrd's terraclip terrain having the 1 inch squares I dont see how it is not reasonable to at least sanction a 12 month trial period for pre-measure.

[Adran]

There is nothing to stop you playing games with premeasuring now, as long as you both agree to it before hand. No Other changes need to be made to allow it. I have a feeling you'll find the average turn length goes up as you consider more options.

But as you say, Try it.

[sharpobjects]

I know I can do it my self but that would just be adding my opinion after the experiment of a small sample of games. Unless its sanctioned and performed every where at LGS games and tourneys you would never get the best feedback.

There is a pre-measure mechanic already built into the game with being able to check to see if you are in melee. I have seen people making numerous melee checks all over the board and it took less than 30 secs to do all of them. I never felt like it was dragging the game on.

[Forar]

I agree. Anecdotally speaking, I'd say that range checks would probably take up a fraction of the time that "hmmm'ing and haw'ing" about a questionable range does in a game.

Not to mention that it affects different crews/masters more than others. I'm sure some will argue that ranged attacks are powerful enough that it's intended, but measuring the distance on a walk or charge gives you ample ability to minimize the risk of being off when ready to attack, whereas even the best of us will sometimes find ourselves an 1/8th of an inch off on that 8/10/12/whatever inch shot or spell. Sure, if you try a tricky placement on the end of a charge you can end up in the same spot, but I imagine most of us find it easier to judge being within 1 or 2 inches while measuring out the charge itself than eyeballing an austringer throw that could easily be plus or minus half an inch. (and yes, I'm aware that some players are carpenters or whatever and can call anything from 1 inch to 3 feet within 1/32nd of an inch)

At the risk of going a bit beyond the scope of the discussion, I'd rather be beaten in a game by superior tactics and/or luck, than because I'm better able to judge just how far 10 inches is on a table.

[grey3]

I agree with everyone that premeasuring most likely will speed the game up and that there are some unfair advantages to people that lack depth perception (my wife being such a case). That said one of the things that I like about the lack of premeasuring is that it makes the game very deliberate. By that I mean that a player has to be willing to commit to an action without fully understanding it's consequences.

I know I'm just speaking for myself but if I ever doubt whether or not I have range, I spend the AP to move, and if I don't then it means that I must not think that shooting someone is as important as another action. I realize that this approach messes with the optimization of a turn, but I actually enjoy it this way.

It's not going to ruin my game whether there is premeasuring or not, and if it allows more people to enjoy the game then all the better.

[Allandrel]

There was a pretty detailed discussion of pre-measure with lots of things I never thought about:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?33445-Pre-Measure

Thanks for pointing that discussion out to me! While I've been wargaming for 20 years, I'm new to Malifaux so it's good to see input on how pre-measuring affects this game.