A few disputes

[Dracomax]

a friend and I were playing tonight, and had a few disputes which got heated.

1)Does pitiful require a new duel when targeting spells off of triggers?(I hit Molly with a strike, triggering the use of a (11) spell. he said that because it was targeting her, it had to duel pitiful again. I said that because it was part of the damage resolution, so long as it wasn't an invalid target, i shouldn't have to make another will duel.

2)can a punk Zombie use self mutilate to reduce itself to 0 wds? (He did not believe me when I said it couldn't use an ability which would definitely kill itself, unless otherwise stated on the card

3)Can Collette use her Artificial soulstone to re-flip initiative?

4) On stake a claimClaim Jump, if I have one model near the marker, and the opponent has none, how many points do I get? I argued four, since 2*0=0, and 1>0. he argues that 1 is not twice as many models as 0, and I should get 2 VP.

EEven though we flipped for resolution of all but point 4, which didn't come up until everything was put away, the closer the game got, the more we argued about rules, and the tighter we held each other to them.we both get quite competitive. SO we will defintily be thankful for outside resolution..

Edited September 19, 2012 by Dracomax
fixed claim jump question.

[Tiny]

1) You have to test every time. As you're targetting her with something additional.

2) Pretty sure that you cannot go to less than 0 wds for any reason. Because its a spell you wont "definitely" kill yourself as you may fail the cast or he may pass the resist duel.

3) I don't think colette can use her artificial soul stone for intiative as it states: "... the first soulstone this model flips each turn isnt deducted from the crews soul stone pool". As she isnt directly flipping the stone this ability never comes into play.

4) Stake a claim you only have to have one of your significant models touching the terrain at the end of the game for it.

Claim jump if your significant model was completely within 3 of the marker and he had none you would have 4 VP from the strategy. I can see where he's coming from but have never played it that way at all.

Sounds like a headache of a game i hope your next games are more relaxed.

[Ausplosions]

Pretty sure you don't have to test for pitiful again....

[Dracomax]

Re #2: the spell says that the Punk Zombie "Inflict up to 3Wd on this

model before choosing a target. Target model suffers

1 Wd per wound inflicted on this model. This spell

may be cast once per turn." The punk Zombie in question had 3 wounds, and reduced itself to 0 in order to kill a nother model.

#3: the artificial soulstone specifically says that it is the first soulstone this model discards this turn. It says nothing about a flip, and specifically only disallows summoning.

[dgraz]

1. Yes it requires a new duel. Even though it is a trigger, the spell is considered a new attack. Just like a Trigger Happy trigger or an Onslaught trigger....the new attack requires a new pitiful duel.

2. No. Unless there is something specific about the PZ that I don't know about (I'm not a rezzer player). You can kill yourself by damage, but you are not allowed to kill yourself by anything that specifically does Wounds (Wd).

3. Yes, in which case she would flip two cards due to her special rule.

[edonil]

As far as Colette's ability, she isn't using it to discard the Soulstone, so you can't use it to reflip the Initiative, just like Cassandra couldn't use Artificial Soulstone for one of her own Actions.

---------- Post added at 02:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 AM ----------

3. Yes, in which case she would flip two cards due to her special rule.

Really? I really don't think it's her reflipping the initiative, it's the Crew as a whole. If the Master was the one reflipping, you'd be unable to reflip if you lose them.

[Tiny]

Re #2: the spell says that the Punk Zombie "Inflict up to 3Wd on this

model before choosing a target. Target model suffers

1 Wd per wound inflicted on this model. This spell

may be cast once per turn." The punk Zombie in question had 3 wounds, and reduced itself to 0 in order to kill a nother model.

Just brought up the v2 card instead of the old rulebook one. Because its wds i'd say that the most wds he could do to himself with 3 wds left would be 2 in that case.

#3: the artificial soulstone specifically says that it is the first soulstone this model discards this turn. It says nothing about a flip, and specifically only disallows summoning.

Colette isnt doing the initiative flip the player is so she wont be able to use soulstone augury or artificial soulstone

---------- Post added at 04:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:32 PM ----------

Pretty sure you don't have to test for pitiful again....

Sure you do, you test every time you target them with an action or it fails. Same as harmless.

[Dracomax]

I honestly hadn't realized you could use soulstones to reflip initiative if you had no models with use soulstone left...

[egoon]

1. Yes, it's a new duel. A new test for Pitiful is required.

2. No. The Punk Zombie cannot reduce itself to 0 Wd with self-mutilate. If it has 3 Wd left, it can only suffer 2 Wd from that spell. And this means the PZ will normally not be able to use self mutilate as a S2D action.

3. I would think no, since it is not a model that discards soulstones for the initiative reflip. You can reflip the initiative even if there are no models left with the use soulstone ability.

4. I assume you mean claim jump. I would agree that 1 is more than twice as many as 0, thus giving you 4VP.

[Mach_5]

From the FAQ:

Q. Can a model kill or sacrifice itself?

A. Yes. Unless the Talent/Spell causes a fixed number of wounds and those wounds would drop the model to 0 Wounds.

I bolded the word Spell to show that the fact that it is a spell does not mean that the PZ can use it to kill himself (it also doesn't mean he can't).

So, we know a model can kill itself if the ability/spell doesn't cause a fixed number wounds. Does Self Mutilate cause a fixed number of wounds? I think there's arguments for and against that. You could say that it is a fixed number of Wd because you are choosing the number you take, ie its not Random. You could also say that it is not a fixed number, because it could be 1, 2, or 3 Wd.

I don't think there's enough info available to say for certain without a Rules Marshall making a ruling on it, but I'd personally play it as Fixed and say that the PZ couldn't kill himself with it.

[FearLord]

The example of a model not being able to kill itself by inflicting wounds on itself on page 44 of the rules manual is the Punk Zombie's 'Mutilate' spell - it is clear that you cannot use it to kill the Punk Zombie...

[Tiny]

so to recap

1. yes

2. no

3. no

4. yes 4vp

[Soul Puppet]

so to recap

1. yes

2. no

3. no

4. yes 4vp

That's the way I read it also.

[NeuroFire]

he argues that 1 is not twice as many models as 0, and I should get 2 VP.

That's silly. Mathematically, there are no numbers "twice" as much as zero. A million would still not be "twice" as many as zero, so by that argument an opponent could never get near the claim jump and still deny you VP for it.

Alternatively, all real numbers are infinitely greater than zero. If this comes up again, I'd say to make the argument that 1 is twice as many as 0.5, which is a simple value that is greater than zero. Or 1 is four times as many as 0.25, a simple value that comes closer to zero than one-half does. Either way, 1 is actually more than twice as many as zero.

[Golden]

My answer to your question would be, get better friends.