More daft questions. Terror and disengaging strikes and a few more.

[BillyGB]

Sorry more daft questions.

1) Disengaging strike against a model with terror. Does the model making a strike have to make a terror test?

From the terror rules (P57) it doesnt seem so, as the model making the strike isnt activating. Is this correct?

2)Also, Kaeris inflicts a wound when hit. Is this considered simultaneous so the damage is calculated on Kaeris and the model attacking gets one damage? or if the model hitting is on 1 wd would they die and not inflict any damage?

3)Spells. Spells that dont have the or symbols. Even though there is an enemy target of the spell are they not considered ranged / melee spells? For example, deepest fear or abduction from the stitched. 3b)So can be cast from melee? 3c)and models that can force on attack rolls (thinking of cassandra), does this affect these spells?

Thanks.

[Ausplosions]

1) No

2) The model hit then die.

3) correct

3b) correct

3c) An Attack Flip (notice the capitals) only comes from weapon strikes, so it would not affect any spell, even the ones with and

[BillyGB]

Sorry to res this thread but i forgot to say thanks to Ausplosions. So Thanks!

and

Also, as to 3c. Ausplosions says that an attack flip is only from weapon strikes and not from spells. On page 18 of the little rule book it says that spells that need a resist or have the symbols next to them are attacks! Are these different types of attacks? How are you meant to tell the difference as on the card for the ability it just says attacks.

2 new beginner questions:

At the end of turn when you discard cards and redraw your hand. What order does it go in (though i gues its not that big an issue)? Do you:

A) discard unwanted cards from your hand into the discard pile. Draw new cards from the remaining deck. Then shuffle discard pile into deck ready for next round.

Do you mix in discard pile with remaining deck (and shuffle), discard unwanted cards from hand forming a new discard pile, then draw hand for next turn.

C) or do you mix discard pile, remaining deck and discarded cards from hand and then draw new cards.

Second question:

Defensive triggers: Marcos has a defensive trigger that he can swap places when charged. Does he have to win the duel to activate this or is the act of being charged trigger enough? Do defensive triggers only ever work when the defender has won the duel?

[Ausplosions]

Sorry to res this thread but i forgot to say thanks to Ausplosions. So Thanks!

and

Also, as to 3c. Ausplosions says that an attack flip is only from weapon strikes and not from spells. On page 18 of the little rule book it says that spells that need a resist or have the symbols next to them are attacks! Are these different types of attacks? How are you meant to tell the difference as on the card for the ability it just says attacks.

Basically, Attack Flips are only generated by Strikes using a weapon. All attacks generate flips, only weapon Strikes generate Attack Flips.

Another way of thinking of it is: All Attack Flips are attacks, but not all attacks generate Attack Flips.

2 new beginner questions:

At the end of turn when you discard cards and redraw your hand. What order does it go in (though i gues its not that big an issue)? Do you:

A) discard unwanted cards from your hand into the discard pile. Draw new cards from the remaining deck. Then shuffle discard pile into deck ready for next round.

Do you mix in discard pile with remaining deck (and shuffle), discard unwanted cards from hand forming a new discard pile, then draw hand for next turn. This one.

C) or do you mix discard pile, remaining deck and discarded cards from hand and then draw new cards.

Second question:

Defensive triggers: Marcos has a defensive trigger that he can swap places when charged. Does he have to win the duel to activate this or is the act of being charged trigger enough? Do defensive triggers only ever work when the defender has won the duel? Not always. Some will say, "when successfully defending" some will just work regardless. Although other may want to chime in here. ...

Answers in red.

[dgraz]

Sorry to res this thread but i forgot to say thanks to Ausplosions. So Thanks!

and

Also, as to 3c. Ausplosions says that an attack flip is only from weapon strikes and not from spells. On page 18 of the little rule book it says that spells that need a resist or have the symbols next to them are attacks! Are these different types of attacks? How are you meant to tell the difference as on the card for the ability it just says attacks. 'attack' is a general term, 'A'ttack is a specific game term that is exclusive to Strikes. I believe that this may be spelled out in the downloadable FAQ.

2 new beginner questions:

At the end of turn when you discard cards and redraw your hand. What order does it go in (though i gues its not that big an issue)? Do you:

A) discard unwanted cards from your hand into the discard pile. Draw new cards from the remaining deck. Then shuffle discard pile into deck ready for next round.

Do you mix in discard pile with remaining deck (and shuffle), discard unwanted cards from hand forming a new discard pile, then draw hand for next turn.

C) or do you mix discard pile, remaining deck and discarded cards from hand and then draw new cards.

Shuffling is the end of the turn. So when the turn is over you shuffle. Then a new turn begins. At the beginning of the turn, you discard any unwanted cards from your hand and draw back up to your hand maximum.......Shuffle / Discard / Draw

Second question:

Defensive triggers: Marcos has a defensive trigger that he can swap places when charged. Does he have to win the duel to activate this or is the act of being charged trigger enough? Do defensive triggers only ever work when the defender has won the duel?

Triggers are met when the suit requirement is met plus any additional timing that is explained in the trigger. So if there is no additional info then it happens when the suit is met. There is a very specific breakdown in the FAQ.

The Ice Gamin has a trigger that freezes the opponent if the Gamin gets hit.....how would that work if he had to win the duel? Wouldn't make much sense.

Bold mine.

Edit: Ninjad.

[Kadeton]

I'm not sure that I agree that weapon Strikes are the only things affected by modifiers to Attack flips. For example, casting a spell at a model in cover is at a to the casting flip.

Specifically, on page 50 of the RM, it says that spells with or icons are attack spells and are affected by modifiers that affect melee or ranged attacks. That would seem to me to include Cassandra's Southern Charm, for example, which affects all attacks.

However, if the spell did not have those icons, I'm not sure that it would be affected. That's where the attack/Attack ambiguity comes in, I guess.

[Dracomax]

They are attack spells. they attack. they are not Attack Flips; They don't use a weapon. it has been ruled here repeatedly by RMs, and It's clearly spelled out on the FAQ:http://www.malifaux.com/FAQ.php

Edited October 4, 2012 by Dracomax
Clarification

[dgraz]

I'm not sure that I agree that weapon Strikes are the only things affected by modifiers to Attack flips. For example, casting a spell at a model in cover is at a to the casting flip.

There is nothing to agree or disagree about. The following is straight from the FAQ....as I mentioned earlier:

Q. Can you clarify what an Attack Flip or Defense Flip is?

A. Attack and Defense Flips are specific to Strikes

(RM p.42).

Casting and Resist Flips are specific to Spells

(RM p.52 & 53).

Morale Flips are specific to Morale Duels

(RM p.56).

[Dracomax]

I'll give him this, though; without the FAQ and rulings, the distinction is really hard to see, and I wish that particular section Kadeton referenced had been written a bit differently, just to avoic the confusion(which has led to at least one game where my opponent spent a round or two being angry about how an ability had become "useless" until I managed to explain what exactly it all meant more clearly)

[dgraz]

I'll give him this, though; without the FAQ and rulings, the distinction is really hard to see, and I wish that particular section Kadeton referenced had been written a bit differently, just to avoid the confusion

No argument here. Should have just called it a Strike Duel.

[Ausplosions]

Agreed. It is VERY confusing. But that is the rule.

[Kadeton]

Thanks for the FAQ references, I'm still not up to speed with the post-FAQ world of Malifaux.

I'm a bit confused now, though - are ranged attack spells still affected by cover?

[CRC]

Can you clarify what an Attack Flip or Defense Flip is?

• Attack and Defense Flips are specific to Strikes
  (RM p.42).
  
• Casting and Resist Flips are specific to Spells
  (RM p.52 & 53).
  
• Morale Flips are specific to Morale Duels
  (RM p.56).

[...]

I'm a bit confused by Spell types. I understand that all Spells affecting enemy models are considered attack Spells, but what are "ranged" and "melee" attack Spells, specifically?

Ranged and melee attack Spells are those Spells that have a ranged (

) or melee ("melee) icon in their Range stat. These Spells follow the rules for that type of attack and receive any bonuses or penalties associated with that type of attack (i.e. a model casting a Spell with the

icon that targets a model in soft cover would receive a

on the Attack Flip). Spells without ranged or melee icons ignore any restrictions or benefits that would apply to those types of attacks (i.e. the spell above cast without the

icon would not suffer the soft cover penalty).

OMFG. In the same FAQ where they say that only Strikes have Attack Flips, they say that spells get a on the Attack Flip.

I don't call for this often, but this needs a Rules Marshal.

[dgraz]

OMFG. In the same FAQ where they say that only Strikes have Attack Flips, they say that spells get a on the Attack Flip.

I don't call for this often, but this needs a Rules Marshal.

That certainly appears to be quite the boo-boo. Although, with all of the rulings on this subject in the past and the way everything else is described, it is obviously a typo. It should say 'would receive a on the Casting Flip'.

@Kadeton - spells with the or still count as spells, but the suffer all the same modifiers those types of strikes do (cover, shooting into combat, etc). The main thing for this topic is that they don't count as a Strike, but as a Spell.

[CRC]

The problem is that Cover says: "Attacker's Attack Flips receive :-fate".

Thus, while cover affects attack spells, it doesn't do anything because no one is making the modified flip type.

[dgraz]

I get what you're saying. It's a language problem....that's all. It's RAI vs RAW...it's just one of the things that didn't get caught when they cleaned up all of the language.

[Kadeton]

@Kadeton - spells with the or still count as spells, but the suffer all the same modifiers those types of strikes do (cover, shooting into combat, etc). The main thing for this topic is that they don't count as a Strike, but as a Spell.

But that's kinda what I mean - you can't have it both ways. Cover and Southern Belle both give a modifier to attacks (only ranged attacks, in the case of cover). As far as I can see, either they both work on spells or neither works. What's the difference?

(I'm not trying to be deliberately argumentative, I'd just prefer a clear-cut general case for applying to future disputes. Currently, saying "Modifiers on attacks don't apply to spells, unless they do" is not satisfactory to me.)

[Paddywhack]

Have you had a chance to look at this:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?33856-Resolved-Issues

The first post kinda helps clear up the Casting vs. Attack flips and what affects what (I think so anyway).

[dgraz]

I don't feel you're arguing. I think the main problem is that I'm probably not the best person to explain something

But that's kinda what I mean - you can't have it both ways. Cover and Southern Belle both give a modifier to attacks (only ranged attacks, in the case of cover). As far as I can see, either they both work on spells or neither works. What's the difference?)

The cover thing is against ranged Strikes / Attacks....which is a type of attack (note the use of A/a). Spells are not Strikes....period, but they are attacks (use of 'a'). If they have the then they gain any bonuses and suffer any penalties that ranged Strikes do.

I don't have the specific wording of Southern Belle with me so I can't be more specific about that.

[CRC]

Have you had a chance to look at this:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?33856-Resolved-Issues

The first post kinda helps clear up the Casting vs. Attack flips and what affects what (I think so anyway).

Thanks, I keep forgetting to consult that post when I'm reference rules issues.

[Kadeton]

I don't feel you're arguing. I think the main problem is that I'm probably not the best person to explain something

I think you're making a good attempt, but the rules are a bit of a confusing mess at this point, with updates in the FAQ, the Resolved Issues thread, etc. It's gradually becoming clearer, so thanks for the persistence.

The cover thing is against ranged Strikes / Attacks....which is a type of attack (note the use of A/a). Spells are not Strikes....period, but they are attacks (use of 'a'). If they have the then they gain any bonuses and suffer any penalties that ranged Strikes do.

I don't have the specific wording of Southern Belle with me so I can't be more specific about that.

Okay, I think I'm basically okay with the following:

Modifiers to "Attack Flip(s)" never apply to a spell's Casting Flip.

Modifiers to "Attacker's flip" (a la new cover wording) apply to the Casting Flip of a or spell.

Modifiers to "ranged attacks" apply to the Casting Flip of a spell.

Modifiers to "melee attacks" apply to the Casting Flip of a spell.

Modifiers to "attacks" apply to the Casting Flip of a or spell?

The last one is really the point of contention for this thread, but it seems a logical progression from the other "attack" sub-variants. As far as I can tell, spells are only unaffected by modifiers which specifically apply to Attack Flips.

[Q'iq'el]

Re the last points:

Modifiers to "attacks" should apply to the Casting Flips of all the Spells that are "attacks" - the group is a bit bigger than just the spells with or marks. For example any spell with Rst: value is by definition an attack. But it will, obviously, apply to all the attacks with ranged/melee marks.

[Kadeton]

Re the last points:

Modifiers to "attacks" should apply to the Casting Flips of all the Spells that are "attacks" - the group is a bit bigger than just the spells with or marks. For example any spell with Rst: value is by definition an attack. But it will, obviously, apply to all the attacks with ranged/melee marks.

That's what I initially thought, but that was what other people were arguing against. So far I've only seen RM rulings that apply the modifiers to ranged and melee attack spells, so I'm currently hedging my bets.

---------- Post added at 12:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 PM ----------

Okay, just reviewing the entire thread, I think I've gotten some wires crossed somewhere. Cassandra's Southern Charm specifically references Attack Flips, and clearly doesn't apply to spells of any kind. (I'm sure I read the rule a bunch of times, but clearly I was confused when I did so.)

I think I'm now at a point where I can happily feel like the issue is resolved, and I apologise for derailing the thread and making it all about me for a while. Thanks everyone.

[Subötai]

Sorry to res this thread but i forgot to say thanks to Ausplosions. So Thanks!

and

Also, as to 3c. Ausplosions says that an attack flip is only from weapon strikes and not from spells. On page 18 of the little rule book it says that spells that need a resist or have the symbols next to them are attacks! Are these different types of attacks? How are you meant to tell the difference as on the card for the ability it just says attacks.

2 new beginner questions:

At the end of turn when you discard cards and redraw your hand. What order does it go in (though i gues its not that big an issue)? Do you:

A) discard unwanted cards from your hand into the discard pile. Draw new cards from the remaining deck. Then shuffle discard pile into deck ready for next round.

Do you mix in discard pile with remaining deck (and shuffle), discard unwanted cards from hand forming a new discard pile, then draw hand for next turn.

C) or do you mix discard pile, remaining deck and discarded cards from hand and then draw new cards.

During demos, and casual games with new players, I reinforce the mantra, "Shuffle, discard, draw." Every time I hear someone that I taught say it, I feel like a warpig in slop.

Second question:

Defensive triggers: Marcos has a defensive trigger that he can swap places when charged. Does he have to win the duel to activate this or is the act of being charged trigger enough? Do defensive triggers only ever work when the defender has won the duel?

He does not have to win the duel, and the wording of the trigger will specify when it works. Here is a link to the errata and clarification document:

http://www.malifaux.com/Errata.php

In it you will find a refined set of steps for combat resolution.

[Ausplosions]

That's what I initially thought, but that was what other people were arguing against. So far I've only seen RM rulings that apply the modifiers to ranged and melee attack spells, so I'm currently hedging my bets.

Wait, so now I'm confused. I thought that spells did not get modified by things that modify Attack Flips EVER.

Do and spells receive the modifiers to Attack Flips that a Strike with an equivalent weapon would recieve.

If Yes, why?

If No, why not?

[Kadeton]

Wait, so now I'm confused. I thought that spells did not get modified by things that modify Attack Flips EVER.

Do and spells receive the modifiers to Attack Flips that a Strike with an equivalent weapon would recieve.

If Yes, why?

If No, why not?

Haha, I sometimes have that effect on people.

Okay, so, here's how I understand it. Spells do not get modified by things that affect Attack Flips, EVER (as you've said). However, they do get modified by things which affect attacks, assuming the spell has a resist. If it's a spell, it also gets modified by things which affect ranged attacks (and correspondingly for spells and modifiers to melee attacks).

So basically, spells receive the modifiers that would be applied to an equivalent weapon, as long as the modifier doesn't specify that it affects an Attack Flip.