Dead Doxy vs Rotten Belle?

[D-A-C]

Hey everyone.

I was just flicking through the list of options available for a Seamus crew and I came across the Dead Doxy. I have never seen one, bar the model, so have no real idea what it is supposed to contribute to Seamus' crew. So I went over to the Malifaux wiki, and to be honest. I'm still none the wiser.

Has anyone ever used these? I had originally planned to summon one in any games I used as Seamus, just because a Belle is 4ss and a Doxy is 5ss, but as I have begun to understand that Resurrectionists really need their models to perform well at a specific task, I am just wondering what tasks these models could fulful that a normal Belle couldn't?

Do any of you guys use them in your Seamus crews, or are they worth summoning ... basically how do you use them lol? (cuz the models are cool at fit Seamus theme well IMO).

[His Fattness]

Dead doxies can give some needed ranged support to a very melee focuses crew. They also stock a great debuff. I don't think I would start with them, but summoning them in middle to late game could prove useful.

[sassylady]

I have used them with both Molly and Seamus with varied results. I always bring a Belle because lure is just too good, but Doxy has a push, as said above, a ranged weapon which you can't get with a fluffy Seamus list. I will generally have to lure a model into my Doxy's range, but that's the beauty of a Belle. Just be sure it's on one that's activated already so they don't ruin her hard work! Like I said, results are varied, but when all else fails, they have a slow to die and I've always gotten a lot out of mine!

[Omenbringer]

The Dead Doxies are a great "tar pit" minion but should almost always be paired with a Rotten Belle or Sybelle in play.

I generally start with at least one in play and summon another in game (neither Seamus nor Molly is super great at creating them in game).

[SoulG]

Doxies are tarpits and objective runners. If they start near Seamus they have a rather impressive walk of 7, along with their (0) action pull. This means they can cover 14" of ground and still have a 1 action to interact with something.

If you can afford to not make it in a single activation, then you can air it with a Belle, have the Belle ull it 5" forward, and then have it walk another 7" (12 total, coincidentally enough to get to the center of the board) for an objective that requires a (2) action.

While Sybelle can do the same thing in one activation, she needs a good Mask to do it.

[Gruesome]

I have had difficulty making them feel worth summoning instead of another belle.

I still try on occasion though.

[Bigkid]

The main problem with them is their reliance on suits. You'll often be sat with none of the cards needed to get them to work. Compare this with the Belle and you get why I have hardly ever used them.

And a range 6" gun with cb 4 is pretty worthless (forgive me if I've got those stats wrong as I'm at work...) when you can take a convict gunslinger for 6 (?) stones.

[DeleteAccount]

They only seem useful to me to be summoned by Seamus as objective grabbers, in almost any other situation, you can plain do better. Their "resilience" is pretty debatable with less life than a normal belle, their defensive trigger shouldn't be actually triggering too much because thanks to hard to wound, they shouldn't be getting to many moderate or severe on them and if you do your slow to die action, you take down your belles durability. More importantly, they manage to be more expensive than belles and be worse in combat and god knows Seamus is already quite lacking in omph factor.

[D-A-C]

Thanks for the help guys.

I was tinkering around with a hypothetical 25ss Seamus list (I'm running McMourning atm) and had come up with:

Seamus

Madame Sybelle w/ Grave Spirit - 7ss

x2 Rotten Belle - 8ss

x1 Dead Doxy - 5ss

x1 Onryo - 5ss

2ss Cache (scarily low for Seamus he really needs a buff to 3 or 4)

But now after reading all your responses I'll opt for:

Seamus

Madame Sybelle w/ Grave Spirit - 7ss

x2 Rotten Belle - 8ss

x2 Onryo - 10ss

2ss Cache (still scarily low for Seamus)

Onryo are just too good for Seamus as they add some much needed oomph to his crews attacking power, and have a debuff spell that removes immunity to wp duels so that syncs well with Seamus terrifying ability.

Although two might be overkill at this ss level, and I might drop one for a better ss cache as I find Seamus really needs alot of them.

Finally, do you guys think Dead Doxy's will ever get an update to make them more competitive? I think even reducing them to 4ss and leaving it at that would make them alot more appealing as you could take two Belles and a Doxy for 12ss, but as it stands they are 1ss more expensive than Belles and Crooked Men who are better together, and only 1ss less expensive than Madame Sybelle herself! Lol.

[Cyphre]

Thanks for the help guys.

I was tinkering around with a hypothetical 25ss Seamus list (I'm running McMourning atm) and had come up with:

Seamus

Madame Sybelle w/ Grave Spirit - 7ss

x2 Rotten Belle - 8ss

x1 Dead Doxy - 5ss

x1 Onryo - 5ss

2ss Cache (scarily low for Seamus he really needs a buff to 3 or 4)

But now after reading all your responses I'll opt for:

Seamus

Madame Sybelle w/ Grave Spirit - 7ss

x2 Rotten Belle - 8ss

x2 Onryo - 10ss

2ss Cache (still scarily low for Seamus)

Onryo are just too good for Seamus as they add some much needed oomph to his crews attacking power, and have a debuff spell that removes immunity to wp duels so that syncs well with Seamus terrifying ability.

Although two might be overkill at this ss level, and I might drop one for a better ss cache as I find Seamus really needs alot of them.

Finally, do you guys think Dead Doxy's will ever get an update to make them more competitive? I think even reducing them to 4ss and leaving it at that would make them alot more appealing as you could take two Belles and a Doxy for 12ss, but as it stands they are 1ss more expensive than Belles and Crooked Men who are better together, and only 1ss less expensive than Madame Sybelle herself! Lol.

You should drop one Onryo and add the 5 points to you ss cache, Seamus' 4 defence and 5 with his flintlock is low, so you really need your soulstones to buff those two.

[Gruesome]

Finally, do you guys think Dead Doxy's will ever get an update to make them more competitive?

I hold out hope still that someone smarter than I will enlighten the rest of us on some tricks with her.

I will say that where I have liked her the least is when there is only 1. My best moment with them was having 2 out with Rafkin and for 2 turns they completed tarpitted something nasty that I do not remember. Basically, Rafkin gave hard to kill and would heal the Doxy out of combat, then when the one engaged got "killed", she would final encore with the recently healed that now had more than 1 wound and hard to kill, so it took both attacks to "kill" that one and would swap with the newly healed Doxy, etc...

Something like that. The gist of it was that doxies were swapping with each other over and over and the one NOT in combat was getting healed.

[Omenbringer]

The main problem with them is their reliance on suits. You'll often be sat with none of the cards needed to get them to work.

Only one of their spells really requires a suit (Seduction with a :tomes) and when hit provides an auto-trigger (Fatal Distraction which provides a free melee or ranged Strike).

Their "resilience" is pretty debatable with less life than a normal belle, their defensive trigger shouldn't be actually triggering too much because thanks to hard to wound, they shouldn't be getting to many moderate or severe on them and if you do your slow to die action, you take down your belles durability.

Strangely Attractive provides a nice Defensive layer against all models (and can't be ignored). Slightly higher Df (over the Rotten Belles) plus Hard to Wound helps also. Final Encore can be rather situational but I like using it as a Sybelle delivery system (since she has Regeneration to offset the Wd penalty and is pretty capable in melee).

2ss Cache (scarily low for Seamus he really needs a buff to 3 or 4)

Dont really agree, I regularly run Seamus with only 2 Soul Stones and have been fairly successful.

Finally, do you guys think Dead Doxy's will ever get an update to make them more competitive? I think even reducing them to 4ss and leaving it at that would make them alot more appealing as you could take two Belles and a Doxy for 12ss, but as it stands they are 1ss more expensive than Belles and Crooked Men who are better together, and only 1ss less expensive than Madame Sybelle herself! Lol.

They are actually quite competitive in objective play (especially in games where you need to have significant models on an objective or at the end of the game) and relatively balanced. They are a bit to good at what they do to lower their cost by a point, plus you can take

Ressurectionists Crew - 30 - Scrap

Seamus, The Mad-Hatter

--

2 Pool

Copycat Killer [2ss]

• Bête Noire
  [9ss]
  
  
• Dead Doxy
  [5ss]
  
  
• Madame Sybelle
  [6ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  
• Rotten Belles
  [4ss]
  
  

As is and that is quite a bit of omph at 30 SS.

[Sezar]

2ss cache at 30 is nothing! I would seriuosly consider removing the CCK for at least having cache 5 there

[Gruesome]

I must play Seamus very different because 2SS would be mean never being able to cheat on his Flintlock for having an even or and if ever caught by something particularly nasty, 2SS would be signing his death warrant.

For me, Seamus and Nicodem go through SS faster than any masters I own. Nico to ensure the world is paralyzed and occasionally for an emergency summons off a mid-:crows and Seamus to get an even or better flip for Flintlock to Severe a model off the board, or hopefully Red Joker a master away. (But usually to try to stay alive if he has been caught)

[Omenbringer]

2ss cache at 30 is nothing! I would seriuosly consider removing the CCK for at least having cache 5 there

That should be 4 SS in the cache as the Copy Cat Killer is only 2 SS to hire.

I must play Seamus very different because 2SS would be mean never being able to cheat on his Flintlock for having an even or and if ever caught by something particularly nasty, 2SS would be signing his death warrant.

For me, Seamus and Nicodem go through SS faster than any masters I own. Nico to ensure the world is paralyzed and occasionally for an emergency summons off a mid-:crows and Seamus to get an even or better flip for Flintlock to Severe a model off the board, or hopefully Red Joker a master away. (But usually to try to stay alive if he has been caught)

We probably do play Seamus and the Harem a lot differently.

In general I dont project the crew forward until very late in the game (when working to complete objectives), instead relying on judicious spamming of Lure to bring a select model (usually that has already activated) into my killing field where Sybelle and Bete do most of the heavy lifting. The crew predominantly hides behind terrain limiting exposure to attack. In the event I have over exposed the crew, I usually have another Rotten Belle Lure the big threats away to a flank until they are ready to be dealt with. For me the crew favors the cat and mouse (or fix and flank) game as opposed to the mad dash to melee.

Soul Stone's are definately nice to provide that chance at achieving the extra omph on a flintlock strike (against a Master normally) however, most times just focusing the strike is the better more efficient option (providing a boost to both the strike flip and the damage flip and allowing cheating of the damage while only succeeding by 1 point in the duel in most cases, i.e. no Hard to Wound). Giving that the flintlock may only be fired once per turn and that he is also Fast he doesn't really lose a whole lot when doing this as he can either move before or after the single shot. Between Seamus and the Copy Cat Killer doing this not much remains standing when the gunsmoke has cleared.

In the event Seamus is engaged by a Big Nasty like Lady Justice, most times Soul Stones wont help much as his Df is below average (and way below her base Cb before any buffs are taken into account) and her damage out put even on Weak is just amazing. The best use of Soul Stones for Seamus defensively is resetting Hard to Kill by performing Healing flips during his turn (should he make it to it) or using it to enhance a strike against a living or undead model within 6" hopefully killing it and providing some guarantied healing, a control card, and a corpse counter.

Back on topic though, the Dead Doxy fits into all this by being a great model to tie up those big nasties that can seriously hurt the crew if left to their devices. Paired with a Rotten Belle on a flank the two work well to pull the threat away and pin it there for at least a turn while the rest of the crew resets to deal with it.

[DarcXON]

I must play Seamus very different because 2SS would be mean never being able to cheat on his Flintlock for having an even or and if ever caught by something particularly nasty, 2SS would be signing his death warrant.

For me, Seamus and Nicodem go through SS faster than any masters I own. Nico to ensure the world is paralyzed and occasionally for an emergency summons off a mid-:crows and Seamus to get an even or better flip for Flintlock to Severe a model off the board, or hopefully Red Joker a master away. (But usually to try to stay alive if he has been caught)

I have to say that we probably play Seamus the same way. I find that if I don't play him with at least 6 SS, he usually doesn't take part in much of the game for fear of retribution. Also I find that Seamus can play a very varied crew with mixes of Spirits and Undead without changing his play style too much.

[Gruesome]

We probably do play Seamus and the Harem a lot differently.

In general I dont project the crew forward until very late in the game (when working to complete objectives)

I see...

How do you handle destroy the evidence, stake a claim, breakthrough and reconnoiter with Seamus in a tournament where there is typically no such thing as "very late game" ?

Edited September 16, 2012 by Gruesome

[DeleteAccount]

There is also the big fat problem of those lures not being able to pull their weight because of immune to influence or high willpower. That and there is also the big problem that your opponent can also use cover to avoid lure lines while at the same time approaching your lines and your force is frankly quite pillow fisted. I mean, non living models would be problematic since bete loses alot of punch vs non living right of the bat and sibelle can't really take much punishment. Hell, I'm wondering what the Copycat Killer adds to the list.

[Omenbringer]

I see...

How do you handle destroy the evidence, stake a claim, breakthrough and reconnoiter with Seamus in a tournament where there is typically no such thing as "very late game" ?

Seamus (and most of the Resser masters/ crews) doesn't see a lot of tournament play because he is slow to develop and requires a full compliment of turns.

There is also the big fat problem of those lures not being able to pull their weight because of immune to influence or high willpower. That and there is also the big problem that your opponent can also use cover to avoid lure lines while at the same time approaching your lines and your force is frankly quite pillow fisted. I mean, non living models would be problematic since bete loses alot of punch vs non living right of the bat and sibelle can't really take much punishment. Hell, I'm wondering what the Copycat Killer adds to the list.

True but these have been problems with Seamus' vanilla crew from near the start (before the proliferation of Immune to Influence and non-living models). In the cases you mention you wouldn't bring Rotten Belles or the Dead Doxy (though you could still use them to effect your own models). The Lures though are still a bit difficult to defend against even with high Wp since they have a base Ca of 8 and start with both required suits.

Disagree that Bete loses a lot of punch vs non-living models as the only thing she has that really requires living models is Sever Spine and Drawn to Death (which you can use your own models to trigger). Everything else functions normally. Sybelle is a bit pillow fisted however her triggers (Fester and Rough Trade)can still effect models that are Immune to Influence and Shriek will still result in a Damage flip (just not the secondary effect). The Copy Cat Killer is there for his really big gun, something that Ressers are at a deficet for.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Gruesome]

Seamus (and most of the Resser masters/ crews) doesn't see a lot of tournament play because he is slow to develop and requires a full compliment of turns.

I see. That makes more sense. If you do not run him at certain time-limited events, maybe you can play much safer and "slower" with him.

I would say that at the past Adepticon he was actually one of the single most popular masters from what I saw, but most people gave him a large cache. (Not that it seemed to help end results all that much)

I was pretty surprised by the number of him I saw there.

[Omenbringer]

Exactly why Kirai is the main Resser Master you see at Tourney's, since she develops so much faster than the others. I have run him at competitive events with mild success, though the limited number of turns is very difficult on him (though this is true with several other Masters/ crews as well, and not just in the Resser faction).

Even with a large cache he is very difficult to win with in competitive play since he is so living/ undead centric and slow to develop. A large cache doesn't help as much as with other Masters/ crews since he can only do so much with them (generally, add to the flintlock strike to ensure the success, add to the casting flip for Live for Pain to ensure the success, possibly use one to ensure success of Arise my Sweet, healing flip to reset Hard to Kill, and possibly a Damage Prevention flip in the hopes of living thru a strike).

In my experience hiring another minion for the crew is usually more effective than having a larger cache.

[Gruesome]

Kirai did not have much of a showing at Adepticon.

McMourning and Seamus were most represented and the McMourning players did the best. Not intended as a "balance" judgement, as I know that at least a couple of the McMourning players I saw I know to be good and experienced.

[Fetid Strumpet]

My opinion is that the strong showing of McMorning and the lackluster performance of Kirai is a concentrated backlash against the opinion that Kirai is the top Resser master. Add to that that in one or two cases I know of players who feel that Kirai just doesn't fit the feeling of a "true" resser master and actively choose not to play her.

The other advantage of Kirai isn't just that she can break out so fast, as you don't have to play her that way. Speed in Malifaux is so important because it in essence gives you extra tempo and actions, effectively.

If you are slow you need to burn a significant amount of your total available action points over the course of the game even getting into a position where you can project your power, where your model can actually achieve the ends for which you brought it. Additionally, if you are slow you MUST spend actions almost from the outset of the game to begin achieving your goals.

If you are fast you have numerous other options. You can run a game, similar to how Nix describes his style of playing Colette, where you immediately run out and lock up VP from the outset of the game that cannot be taken away from you. You can also play the waiting game, sitting back and just adjusting your positioning, waiting for the opponent to overextend an element of his lines, then swooping in to leverage the mistake. Speed means you don't have to actually begin working to achieve your ends from the outset, and are more fully able to adjust your plans or methods mid-game, and is the biggest reason I feel Kirai is as good as she is. She has the speed to wait, or jump forward, and in the end game there are numerous schemes and strats she can contribute to on the fly by summoning a significant model up to 12" away from her on the last turn of the game.

[Gruesome]

That makes sense. Not sure I understand Anti-Kirai sentiment, but I do know that I feel like she is definitely "the outsider" in my faction and I play her the least. Not for a particular dislike or anything, I had fun playing her against my son, but just agreed that I would set her aside until he had more experience with more of his crews because it was a pretty brutal couple of games as 50% of her shenanigans were pretty obvious after a single turn. I am sure that with more experience, she would be even deadlier and that is not something I want yet, so I concentrate of Seamus and Nicodem. (And occasionally McMourning)

I did not mean to say that Kirai had any sort of "lackluster performance" at all. She just was not fielded as much as McMourning and Seamus.

[Guy in Suit]

Well Kirai lost the Shikome win button - so is a bit harder to use than she was in the past. (I own a Kirai crew and do terribly when I play her!)