aColette and Deliver a Message

[EntrepeNinja]

I've been searching for anyone else running up against this, and haven't found much. I know she hasn't seen much practical use yet, but I'm curious about popular opinion:

aColette vs. anybody with Deliver a message Strategy.

Assuming you can get to Avatar without being delivered to, what would happen if a model tried to deliver a message to a decoy? Technicaly they all share the same card, and therefore the same model, but as she is the avatar of deception, wouldn't it make sense that the message not be delivered unless it was delivered to the right one? I think if the ruling goes she can monty her way to some real confusion around the board, that this would be a really good use of the Colette avatar, but if the ruling goes to any one of them being a deliver target, it triples your chance, and totally trump the effectiveness of shell-game.

What do you guys think?

[mythicFOX]

Welcome to the boards. Great to see new faces.

I honestly have no idea, really good question, looking forward to the answer.

For future reference this should probably be posted in the rules forum.

EDIT: Edited to remove reflex sarcasm. :/

Edited August 2, 2012 by mythicFOX

[merlinman]

I think the message can be delivered to any non revealed decoy. As the decoys are insignificant i believe ( no card in front of me ) and when you have "all three" on the field and none are revealed they can all run around and interact with things. If they can do this then i would think a message can be delivered

[Grifonetto]

Getting into the fine print, this is how I would interpret it (bearing in mind that I'm not a rules authority):

First, the Decoys aren't your leader. Second, Deliver a Message says that while within 2" of your leader a model may take a (2) Interact action to deliver the message. So when your opponent gets a model within 2" of a Decoy and tries to take that action, you have to inform him that he's not within 2" of your leader, so the action cannot be taken, which de facto reveals your Decoy and leaves the enemy model sitting next to it with 2 AP to work with.

EDIT: As a corollary, if you've got the real Avatar and a Decoy close together, so that your opponent can get his model within 2" of both of them, he doesn't have to actually know which one is real to deliver the message.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Grifonetto

[edonil]

My only problem with that interpretation is that that's not what Decoy says about revealing. Decoy outlines specific circumstances under which you reveal who the Decoy is, but otherwise, they are Colette until revealed, as per the rule. Personally, without an FAQ or ruling from Ratty or one of the other Rules Marshals, that's how I see it working per the rules.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Grifonetto, I can see how you might come to that interpretation, however, according to the rules as written, I believe that interpretation to be incorrect. Until a decoy is revealed they all share the same card as aColette, and delivering a message is not a condition that would force a reveal of whether the model in question is a decoy or not, as the rules for revealing a decoy state that a decoy is only revealed when it suffers dmg or wds, it is killed or sacrificed, or at the end closing phase. If your interpretation were correct the Decoy's also couldn't use any trait reserved for the master, such as use SS, nor could they count as significant, as the decoy's themselves are not.

Until a decoy is revealed it is for all intents and purposes officially Colette, Avatar of Deception, even the paragraph after the conditions under which a decoy is revealed says:

Spells cast by one Colette, Avatar of Deception model cannot be cast by the remaining, Colette, Avatar of Deception models during their simultaneous activation.

Which to me says that unless a decoy is revealed every single one of the Decoys is a valid target for delivering the message.

Now whether the designers intended this to be the consequence is another matter, and I could easily see them adding an errata to allow a Decoy to be revealed when involved in an action that can only be directed at a master. However, until they clarify it I don't see any argument backed up by the rules that could justify not being able to deliver the message to an unrevealed Decoy.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet
Edited for clarity

[merlinman]

My only problem with that interpretation is that that's not what Decoy says about revealing. Decoy outlines specific circumstances under which you reveal who the Decoy is, but otherwise, they are Colette until revealed, as per the rule. Personally, without an FAQ or ruling from Ratty or one of the other Rules Marshals, that's how I see it working per the rules.

^^ think this guy has it right, similar to what i said :]

[Grifonetto]

I see your points, edonil, merlinman and FetidStrumpet. One thing I'd like to clarify, though, is that when I said "de facto revealed", I meant that your opponent effectively knows that it's a Decoy despite it not being officially "revealed". My position is still that the Decoy wouldn't have an ability that says it may "act as if it were Colette" if it actually was Colette, so it isn't. I don't think it's a huge issue though, and (for example) in a tournament I would just ask the TO to make a call and abide by whatever they decided. It would be nice to see an official ruling, though.

[pixelante]

It should be pointed out that when you attack a decoy it reveals that decoy. So I see no problem trying to interact with a decoy. You would still be spending the action points for the interact though because to do otherwise would be an abuse of the rules to stop aColettes shell game.

Model spends AP to "deliver message" to aColette.

aColette is revealed to be a decoy.

Model spends remaining AP and ends turn.

Edited August 2, 2012 by pixelante
To make it more clear.

[Barnaberible]

the question is are all aColettes 'your master' until they are revealed as a decoy, or is your master only the real Colette. I dont have the card with me but will have a check when I can to see what I make of it.

[pixelante]

There are two decoys and one Colette. A Decoy can cast spells and use abilites as listed on the aColette card as long as it is not revealed to be a decoy, but it is not Colette for the purposes of any scheme or strategy that is Master specific because it is a decoy not Colette.

[Barnaberible]

Agree with pixelante, the wording is 'one of these 3 models is the acctual colette' so I would say you can't deliver the message to a decoy, also the decoy isn't revealed 'as in you don't switch it's stat card' although obviously your opponent will know its a decoy

Would be better if it's officially revealed as a decoy if your opponent interacts with it

[EntrepeNinja]

So- to add fule to the fire, and because I DO have the stat cards in front of me-

Decoy card:

Decoy: Until revealed as a Decoy, this model replaces its stat card with Colette, Avatar of Deception's stat card and may take Actions as if it was Colette, Avatar of Deception. While revealed, this model uses its own stat card, and may only take the walk and pass actions, and cannot be reactivated.

Which has the same two arguments that both sides have laid out-

1. Decoy replaces it's card with the AoD's card.

2. That the Decoy can take Actions as was it was Colette, Avatar of Deception.

The first point reinforces that they are the same model, the second that they are not.

The first line of shell game reads:

Collette, Avatar of Deception is represented by three models: the Avatar of Deception and two Decoy models

So again, the argument can be made that technically revealed or not, they're ALL the master. I just think that is against the idea of shell game, and if it's just supposed to help with survivability, and increase activations, then it's sort of counter to what (I feel?) is the nature of her mechanism.

Great response time, by the way! Thanks for the discussion. Would it be a good idea to re-post on the rules forums as well?

[Barnaberible]

I think the key is 'as if it were' in the first block of text, just because it uses the stat card dosnt necessarily mean it is the master

The card goes on to say represented by 3 models, blah, blah, controller nominates one of these models to be the acctual Colette while the other 2 become decoys. So I would still say only the nominated model is the acctual master.

[DeusInnomen]

My wife has aColette, and I've been thinking about this pretty heavily. This is how I'd play this: when somebody goes to take the Interact action against a Colette figure, the action fails if the target is a Decoy and the AP is wasted (just as if you go to make a ranged Strike and find yourself out of range.) This does not actually Reveal the model, as per the card the model is only Revealed when "it suffers Dg or Wd, is killed or sacrificed, or at the end of the End Closing Phase." So, mechanically, the Decoy can still use the Colette, Avatar of Deception stat card even though the opponent knows they're not. They still have to Reveal the model as normal to prevent it from using the Avatar's stat card during its activation.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm not really agreeing with that interpretation, as regards RAW. I can certainly see that as an intent, and if the Marshall's weigh in on it I'd certainly be ok if they ruled it worked that way. I think however, per RAW, unless a decoy is revealed they are all valid targets for Deliver a message. I can see however how both sides have valid points to bring up, I think it's just currently one of those grey areas that occur in any complex rules system.

[merlinman]

Decoy card:

Decoy: Until revealed as a Decoy, this model replaces its stat card with Colette, Avatar of Deception's stat card and may take Actions as if it was Colette, Avatar of Deception. While revealed, this model uses its own stat card, and may only take the walk and pass actions, and cannot be reactivated.

i think you can because it says the decoys when not revealed can take actions as if it was Colette, meaning interacting with things, so i would think it it can interact with things then other things can interact with it as long as it isnt revealed yet.

but as its been posted i can see this argued both ways

[bashamer]

the existance of ".....and may take Actions as if it was Colette, Avatar of Deception...." implies that replacing the card was not sufficient to allow for this to happen.

Just because you have the card does not make you the model. It would make unique kinda weird too

In short; This is not resolvable w/o addition information.

I'll ask to get this moved to rules forum.

[Barnaberible]

Any more thoughts on this, I am probably using acolette soon so it may come up.

[Q'iq'el]

i think you can because it says the decoys when not revealed can take actions as if it was Colette, meaning interacting with things, so i would think it it can interact with things then other things can interact with it as long as it isnt revealed yet.

but as its been posted i can see this argued both ways

Actually this seems to be a one-way street. IMHO the fact the Decoy needs special permission to perform actions as if it was Avatar of Deception means other models would also need special permission to treat a Decoy as Avatar of Deception when interacting with it. Since the permission is given only for the Decoy's own action, it works only one-way.

[merlinman]

Actually this seems to be a one-way street. IMHO the fact the Decoy needs special permission to perform actions as if it was Avatar of Deception means other models would also need special permission to treat a Decoy as Avatar of Deception when interacting with it. Since the permission is given only for the Decoy's own action' date=' it works only one-way.[/quote']

i see what you mean. What would you do then if someone tried to deliver the message and it was a decoy? Do you let them think they delivered it and not tell them till end of game or when he then follows up with an attack and is revealed as a decoy and he is like dam it wasn't the real one.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not sure if Interact in this case counts as an attack or not, but I'd treat it as one and reveal the Decoy.

Consider how incredibly hard it is to Deliver Messege against Colette. She knows you're doing it and she can teleport every activation... and it is a (2)AP action to Deliver it (do I remember it right?), so unless you have a Fast minion (not that common), you need to set your crew up so that whenever she teleports, she lands in melee range with one of yours yet to activate minions.

If on the top of that it turns out the Colette was Decoy, that makes it nearly impossible to complete this Strategy.

[bashamer]

remember that you reveal at the end of every round who was the real one. So they would learn that turn if it worked or not. So not quite as bad, but still bad.

[Sarsnick]

So- to add fule to the fire, and because I DO have the stat cards in front of me-

Decoy card:

Which has the same two arguments that both sides have laid out-

1. Decoy replaces it's card with the AoD's card.

2. That the Decoy can take Actions as was it was Colette, Avatar of Deception.

The first point reinforces that they are the same model, the second that they are not.

The stat card contains all the information for that model so that also includes the characteristics of the model (M&SU Member, Showgirl, Avatar(Colette) ).

[Barnaberible]

Was there ever a final decision on this anywhere?