A Power Balance Straw Man Argument: The Wooden Soldier

[Hateful Darkblack]

So, I keep hearing several arguments about power balance:

"[X] isn't overpowered. You just need to learn to handle him."

"[X] isn't underpowered. You just don't know how to play him right."

"[X] isn't overpowered. Just play your Strategies and Schemes."

These don't sit well with me, and I've been thinking about why. All of the second sentences in those statements could be totally true, but that doesn't mean there isn't a play balance problem.

Malifaux is a complex, fascinating, well-designed game. One thing about the game is that there are so many different options, so you can usually get around a lot of things.

However, I have seen people use these complexities to try to drown out reasonable discussion of play balance.

The fact that this is a complex game and you have many options does not answer all play balance questions.

As a straw man argument, I'd like to propose the following model: The Wooden Soldier.

* * *

Wooden Soldier

The Wooden Soldier is part of an elaborate dream by a child at Yuletide. He fights Rat Kings and doesn't afraid of anything.

Outcast, Mercenary, Nightmare, Spirit, Construct, Unique

Soulstone Cost: 1

30mm base

Wk/Cg: 5/-, Ht: 3, Wp: 10, Ca: 3, Df: 4, Wd: *

TALENTS:

A Dream of Toys: Wooden Soldier cannot be killed or sacrificed, and is immune to all effects that cause Wd.

Animosity [Collodi]: This model cannot be hired by a Crew containing the indicated model.

ACTIONS:

(0) March of the Wooden Soldiers: Reactivate this model.

(1) Nutcracker: Kill target enemy minion within 4".

* * *

I think it's safe to say that this is a terrible model. It's vastly overpowered, and it costs an insultingly low amount. If this model were allowed into play, everyone would start taking him just because they'd start losing the game if they didn't, or perhaps everyone would mutter about how it's poor sportsmanship to play this model. And Collodi players would (with good reason) complain: How does it even make sense that this model isn't a Doll and can't be hired by Collodi? Dreamer players would be annoyed that they can't hire him in Scraps.

However, all the arguments I listed above would still apply. You can indeed learn to handle Wooden Soldier -- with units that come back from death, or Obey spells, or effects that Bury him or turn him Insignificant. You can (with difficulty and Soulstones) overcome his high Wp and counter him with Hex. You could have Doppelganger copy some of his cooler abilities. You could hire a bunch of Death Marshalls to put him in a coffin. Or have your Exorcist push him to where he could do less harm. You could stay away from him and make smart use of terrain.

And, even if you don't do all of that, you could still win a game against a crew with the Wooden Soldier by playing your Strategies and Schemes. Even if this dumb model were somehow added into the game, Malifaux would still be fun.

You'd just need to learn to play against him.

But it's still an overpowered model. He's more powerful than he should be, and incredibly fast and durable, with way too much offensive potential. Every crew would need to include some way to counter the Wooden Soldier, and that means every Crew would be doing less of its own thing and more of trying to compensate for the Wooden Soldier. You could play your Strategies and Schemes, and just retreat from the Wooden Soldier, but that means you have to play a crew of Soldier-avoiding fast objective-grabbers instead of what you were going to play, and hope for Strategies that don't involve trying to win a fight.

And it's definitely worth more than one Soulstone. Well, two if you're hiring out of faction, but still more than that.

I contend that the Wooden Soldier is overpowered. And I defy the Wooden Soldier apologists who say he's balanced!

So, the next time you hear someone says that power balance isn't an issue, you just need to learn to counter something, ask yourself "Would those same arguments apply to the Wooden Soldier, which is definitely overpowered?"

Please. Think of the Wooden Soldier.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack

[Jonas Albrecht]

Those arguments don't sit well with you because they're condescending kneejerk reactions that skip any attempt to discuss the topic and go straight to insulting the people who are voicing an opinion counter to theirs. It's board poision, dude.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Those arguments don't sit well with you because they're condescending kneejerk reactions that skip any attempt to discuss the topic and go straight to insulting the people who are voicing an opinion counter to theirs. It's board poision, dude.

I'm sorry. I sure don't mean to insult any other players, and I know a lot of players here are way, way better at this game than I am.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I'm sorry. I sure don't mean to insult any other players, and I know a lot of players here are way, way better at this game than I am.

Oh I'm not referring to you. I'm referring to those arguments you listed in the beginning of your thread. They are just absolutely dumb.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Oh I'm not referring to you. I'm referring to those arguments you listed in the beginning of your thread. They are just absolutely dumb.

Oh, got it! Thanks!

I think I just needed to pose this example because those arguments have some truth to them, but still miss aren't valid arguments.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack

[Jonas Albrecht]

but still aren't valid arguments.

They can be. They require at a bare minimum the ability to accurately describe what the player is doing wrong. That makes all the difference in the world.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Well put! I'd agree with that.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack

[Soundwave]

Nicely written post. I might write a more intricate response if son decides to sleep in a reasonable time tonight... Anyways, just wanted to give a lil' thumbs up.

[FoolWithTheFez]

Thanks, TedPro. I was just thinking about this due to another thread we both posted in. A model (or rule or ability) can be too strong or too weak and still be beaten/useful.

Saying, the game is full of counters for X does not automatically mean X isn't too strong.

[tadaka]

Right now there is nothing dominating the game. (hamlin is getting changed so in my opinion is a non issue) people argue every day that this or that is broken. I have done it myself. Most of the crap i said was broken in the long run has been changed. Or me or my oponent has been playing it wrong. Those arguments are there because 99% of the this is broken threads are realy i dont like this, i dont know how to play, or we are doing it wrong. People get tired of the threads so they toss out one of the above statments because it gets old telling everyone why x is not broken.

[Jonas Albrecht]

People get tired of the threads so they toss out one of the above statments because it gets old telling everyone why x is not broken.

If they're tired of it, a much better use of their time is not responding to the thread. Also this:

Those arguments are there because 99% of the this is broken threads are realy i dont like this, i dont know how to play, or we are doing it wrong.

is you ascribing motive to people without the slightest bit of reason to do so.

[Gruesome]

So, I keep hearing several arguments about power balance:

"[X] isn't overpowered. You just need to learn to handle him."

"[X] isn't underpowered. You just don't know how to play him right."

"[X] isn't overpowered. Just play your Strategies and Schemes."

You forgot the ubiquitous "He is only a problem in YOUR meta-game, we have no problem with him. We'd tell you the theory-faux to handle him, but we are pretty pressed for time and don't actually have a battle-report to link to."

Edited July 21, 2012 by Gruesome

[Sandwich]

You forgot the ubiquitous "He is only a problem in YOUR meta-game, we have no problem with him. We'd tell you the theory-faux to handle him, but we are pretty pressed for time and don't actually have a battle-report to link to."

This pretty much sums up your standard statement you'll hear when you claim there's an issue.

Trust me, in everything I've done (To date, I'm good at being right, so says the Erratas. ;D), this is the most blanket, unhelpful and useless statement anyone has ever made.

And it happens Every. Single. Time.

On the other side of that coin, there are a lot of incredibly finnicky models (See: Pandora) that a LOT of people will see as ridiculously overpowered, far too difficult to handle, and entirely unfun to play against, but she's not all that ridiculously broken when you sit down and dissect her and her crew, there are clear cut lynchpin models, etc, that make her far more manageable than she seems at first.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Sandwich

[Hateful Darkblack]

Right now there is nothing dominating the game. (hamlin is getting changed so in my opinion is a non issue) people argue every day that this or that is broken.

This Saturday, I just played a game where I played 45ss McMourning crew against a 22ss Hamelin crew, and lost badly: Hamelin's Crew was larger than it was at game start, and on Turn Four I gave up because all my models were Insignificant and likely to die. Hamelin is currently in need of a fix. I have every confidence that it will happen, but it hasn't happened yet.

I'll admit, sometimes people say "This is overpowered" because they just lost a game and are being poor sports about it.

And sometimes people say "OMG Mature Nephilim is overpowered; I sent all five Seishin to make Bash Attacks against it and they couldn't even hurt it!" And really, it's because they need to figure out how it works.

But there are legitimate balance issues. (Historically, Alpbomb, Dreamer, and Stitched Together strike me as obvious examples, and these have been fixed nicely.) I think perhaps Lilu/Lilitu is currently a little too tough when you hire multiple sets of them, and should probably both be made Rare 1 or Unique. And I think there's an undepowered issue with Molly's crew choices available. I can understand others may disagree on these, but if they do, I'd like very much to get a more detailed answer than "You just don't know how to play that model/play against that model" or else I'll wonder if they are also okay with the Wooden Soldier.

[Jonas Albrecht]

But there are legitimate balance issues.

Which were met with the same "game's fine as is" attitude by players. There's a definite skew towards status quo that makes discussing Wooden Soldier issues difficult at best.

[Dorian]

Tedpro, your story interests me as almost no matter the crew i dont see having anissue if i outnumber them 2:1. Do you have a battle report?

[Hateful Darkblack]

Dorian, I made video of it, but it may take me a while to video edit the whole thing. Try it out yourself sometime!

[LordZombie]

I am going to make a wooden solider now and use it. If anyone ask where I got it, I will say " I found it on the forums, so it must be true!"

[Odin1981]

This Saturday, I just played a game where I played 45ss McMourning crew against a 22ss Hamelin crew, and lost badly: Hamelin's Crew was larger than it was at game start, and on Turn Four I gave up because all my models were Insignificant and likely to die. Hamelin is currently in need of a fix. I have every confidence that it will happen, but it hasn't happened yet.

I'll admit, sometimes people say "This is overpowered" because they just lost a game and are being poor sports about it.

And sometimes people say "OMG Mature Nephilim is overpowered; I sent all five Seishin to make Bash Attacks against it and they couldn't even hurt it!" And really, it's because they need to figure out how it works.

But there are legitimate balance issues. (Historically, Alpbomb, Dreamer, and Stitched Together strike me as obvious examples, and these have been fixed nicely.) I think perhaps Lilu/Lilitu is currently a little too tough when you hire multiple sets of them, and should probably both be made Rare 1 or Unique. And I think there's an undepowered issue with Molly's crew choices available. I can understand others may disagree on these, but if they do, I'd like very much to get a more detailed answer than "You just don't know how to play that model/play against that model" or else I'll wonder if they are also okay with the Wooden Soldier.

I don't find hamelin to be a problem when I'm running guild due to immune to influence on my grab vp models and stubborn or high base wp stuff that I normally take plus the lovely effect of shrug off that means if hamelin plays the i make you insig game i (0) it away off. However I can see why some crews certain factions might not have as "fair of a matchup" that I get when I play against him.

I also find it funny other than the infinate loop combo's the only thing that has gotten any changes is book 2 neverborne stuff but you would be hard pressed to find anything else get touched (well dora had an errata way back in the day and leve has had two but they both are mainly from the back in book 1 early days).

[Hateful Darkblack]

I don't find hamelin to be a problem when I'm running guild due to immune to influence on my grab vp models and stubborn or high base wp stuff that I normally take plus the lovely effect of shrug off that means if hamelin plays the i make you insig game i (0) it away off. However I can see why some crews certain factions might not have as "fair of a matchup" that I get when I play against him.

Thanks for disagreeing in a meaningful and substantive way! I'll have to test that out sometime.

I also find it funny other than the infinate loop combo's the only thing that has gotten any changes is book 2 neverborne stuff but you would be hard pressed to find anything else get touched (well dora had an errata way back in the day and leve has had two but they both are mainly from the back in book 1 early days).

Some of the Arcanist stuff is affected by the bury mechanic change. But yes, you do have a point there.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I am going to make a wooden solider now and use it. If anyone ask where I got it, I will say " I found it on the forums, so it must be true!"

I am pretty sure you could just use a little Christmas Tree ornament for the proxy sculpt!