Pre-Measure

[Gruesome]

I freely admit that this is only my opinion, and I have already said that allowing premeasuring won't make me quit playing or anything.

That's cool... The thread was not intended to be a debate or call for change. I just wanted to know what people's opinions were on it and I learned some things that had never occurred to me.

Maybe a lot of it has to do with what people are most comfortable with.

I come from a background where most of my gaming was in the early 80s before I am aware of there really being table-top miniature type games like this, so everything we played was on hex boards of one sort or another. (Early Star Fleet Battles and Squad Leader being what I played the most)

So, the idea that having to guess whether I was in range or not was never a factor. You simply counted hexes and knew... Just like with Terraclips. (As long as you are capable of remembering that A-Squared + B-Squared = C-Squared )

Interesting opinions nonetheless. Thanks.

[Sevorin]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but it is 11 pages of postings and I'm not that patient. Here is my thoughts...

Pre-measuring was added to 40k and Warhammer, correct? (I don't play anymore but I do hear the rumors) Didn't they add a twist to movement to balance pre-measurement through random charging? So you can pre-measure, charge, roll, and still be out. The only difference would be is if you were within the minimum distance (i.e. 2d6 + move of 5 = 7).

I think Pre-measuring would unbalance the game because it was designed to be without pre-measuring. Does this mean it takes more skill? Yes, it really does. You need tactical skill, strategy skill, and even measurement skill. People just need to practice the measuring skill. Take out a tape measure every now and then and start measuring stuff around the house... that's how the carpenters get good at gauging distances, they measure daily.

[Fetid Strumpet]

However, I seem to remember a statement from the designers, and if I am wrong on this please forgive me, that they included the 'no pre-measuring' rule, not because they felt it was an intrinsic part of the game, but because they felt it sped the game up.

If that is in fact the case I fail to see how any argument could be made that the game would become more unbalanced if pre-measuring were to become an official rule.

[Gruesome]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but it is 11 pages of postings and I'm not that patient....

...People just need to practice the measuring skill. Take out a tape measure every now and then and start

measuring stuff around the house... that's how the carpenters get good at gauging distances, they measure daily.

You may be mistaken that people want pre-measuring simply because they are bad at estimating.

You like estimating, which is fine by me. Telling people what they should do just reiterates your first sentence, which was basically that you did not have the patience to know why anyone else had a different view.

[dgraz]

to crotchety!

I've been following the thread but I'm still on the fence about pre-measure. I still don't think I'd care either way.

Just wanted to comment that Silas made an interesting point about card counting that I liked.

I can't count cards, but I don't want to change to dice to "level" the playing field, and I usually fail an action every game or two due to misjudging a distance, but I consider it part of the game.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I'd wager more than a few of those citing what amounts to nostalgia ("It's the way I learned to play") also learned all those table cheats for measuring as well.

[Sevorin]

Actually, I suck at estimating.

Im not trying to tell people what they should do; it is the rule. Just trying to give a solution to people who have a problem estimating.

Like I said, it seems that the games that brought it up are games that have random movement anyway, which (for charging anyway) pre-measuring doesnt even give an advantage.

[Gruesome]

to crotchety!

I've been following the thread but I'm still on the fence about pre-measure.

I was on the fence, but definitely leaning towards pre-measure after this thread because of the possibility of faster play and for equaling the playing field with people with vision issues or other physical issues that put them at a disadvantage.

I have nothing against estimating range itself and would not really have thought about it as an issue until the podcast made me think about it. And it was actually responses in this thread that pushed me towards having a particular "side" of the issue.

And definitely a fan of crotchety-ness...

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

Just trying to give a solution to people who have a problem estimating.

For people like me, its definitely a good idea. I know that my estimating accuracy is directly related to my playtime, so whatever it is that trains the brain for it is not broken in my head or my eyesight.

It never occurred to me to practice measuring outside of the game, so that's cool...

[dgraz]

I was on the fence, but definitely leaning towards pre-measure after this thread because of the possibility of faster play and for equaling the playing field with people with vision issues or other physical issues that put them at a disadvantage.

Again, not opposed to pre-measure but just for the devil's advocate in me:

Is this particular point a possible slippery-slope? Speaking about equaling the playing field goes back to Silas' comment about card counting. I can't do it because something in my head can't do the math..........should the game be changed to dice for me because I am at a disadvantage against people that can count?

Or, I can't remember all of the little rules.....all the different abilities (the difference between Scout and Shambling for example), should we 'vanillafy' everything for me? (Which is what PP did in my opinion....which ruined that game for me.)

Or to go to the extreme.....The girl across the table from me is wearing a low-cut shirt and I'm really distracted............should she be forced to wear a sweat-shirt because I can't control my raging teenage hormones?....or get breast-reduction surgery? (Obviously this is a silly statement....it was just the most extreme thing I could think of....and I'm not a teen.)

Some people are going to be better at certain things than others......that's just genetic diversity, the laws of nature, survival of the fittest.......whatever you want to call it.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Is this particular point a possible slippery-slope?

No, pre-measuring is not the levee that holds back those other changes.

[Gruesome]

Its as much or as little a "slope" as Wyrd chose to make it, if it ever happened. (Which I have never seen anyone from Wyrd ever say anything indicating it was even being considered.)

The rest of your examples sound pretty silly to me, but I understand you were trying to play devil's advocate.

[dgraz]

The rest of your examples sound pretty silly to me,

Even the cleavage one? Man I thought that was solid.

The only one that I don't really consider silly is the vanilla one. It happens all the time in other systems and I've seen it requested numerous times on these boards. "Equaling the playing field" in one way opens the door to "equaling" in other ways.

[Mach_5]

I'm also jumping in late to the conversation, sorry if I'm repeating stuff already said

I'd be all for pre-measure. As it is, I know I do it and I always see others trying to decide what to do by judging how far away they are. That takes time.

With premeasure it takes just a few seconds to measure a few ranges and decide what to do based on the outcome. Do I move to interact with an objective or fire a few shots off at the enemy? Well I'm only in range to do one so that's what I'll do. Fast, done.

In a game of WFB and I assume similarly in 40k (don't play it really) pre-measure would have been far more powerful and had a huge impact on the game if they had not also introduced random charge ranges. Without the random charge ranges in Fantasy especially, faster armies would be guaranteed to get the charge where and when they wanted to. With a couple of well timed charges it's not unlikely that you can take out the bulk of an opponent's combat force in a single round of combat. The problem stems from the "my army goes then your army goes" setup those games use. Without random charge ranges a player would know for certain that his 8-10 combo charges in that critical turn would all succeed to give him the best chances at wiping his opponent off the board.

I don't believe the balance in Malifaux would suffer at all by simply moving to pre-measure. Alternating activations alone counters whatever slight benefit could be gained by premeasuring.

[dgraz]

I like Mach-5's point comparing the pre-measure / random charge of GW to the tic-tac of Mali.

[Silas Cordell]

I'd wager more than a few of those citing what amounts to nostalgia ("It's the way I learned to play") also learned all those table cheats for measuring as well.

Yep, and all the players who don't know them yet should pick them up, too.

Is this particular point a possible slippery-slope?

No, pre-measuring is not the levee that holds back those other changes.

I disagree, sort of? It is a slippery slope case to argue that pre-measure should be added to accommodate disabilities, and could then lead to other "fixes." However, a "slippery slope" argument is itself a logical fallacy, and should not be considered valid.

Sorry, semester of philosophy compels me to point these things out.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Yep, and all the players who don't know them yet should pick them up, too.

Or maybe that's indicative of an inherent need for pre-measuring.

[Silas Cordell]

Or maybe that's indicative of an inherent need for pre-measuring.

No, I think there is a large difference in scale as well as substance here.

Also, on a loosely related note: while my opinion regarding pre-measuring isn't that strong, I think adding a random component to charges would make me quit playing. Not that anyone has suggested it, specifically, but it's been mentioned as part of the GW change.

[Jonas Albrecht]

No, I think there is a large difference in scale as well as substance here.

I disagree. I think if it comes down to people being expected to learn the same tricks to get around "no pre-measuring" rules that the wargrogs mistake for skill, then there's no better argument for just up and allowing people to measure before they take a shot.

[Justin]

Again, not opposed to pre-measure but just for the devil's advocate in me:

Is this particular point a possible slippery-slope? Speaking about equaling the playing field goes back to Silas' comment about card counting. I can't do it because something in my head can't do the math..........should the game be changed to dice for me because I am at a disadvantage against people that can count?

Or, I can't remember all of the little rules.....all the different abilities (the difference between Scout and Shambling for example), should we 'vanillafy' everything for me? (Which is what PP did in my opinion....which ruined that game for me.)

Or to go to the extreme.....The girl across the table from me is wearing a low-cut shirt and I'm really distracted............should she be forced to wear a sweat-shirt because I can't control my raging teenage hormones?....or get breast-reduction surgery? (Obviously this is a silly statement....it was just the most extreme thing I could think of....and I'm not a teen.)

Some people are going to be better at certain things than others......that's just genetic diversity, the laws of nature, survival of the fittest.......whatever you want to call it.

Ultimately, the winner of the game will be decided with luck and skill.

When it comes to skills, it's a given certain people will have advantages. Some people are better at resource management, thinking ahead, tactical positioning, etc; all very important skills to Malifaux.

Ultimately, the question of premeasuring isn't, "can all players do this equally?" Because the obvious answer is, no. The question is, "is this a skill worth rewarding?" In other words, "does using this skill add a level of fun and depth to the game?"

I won't answer those questions because, unfortunately, there is a top hat over my name and I think too much could be read into my answers; but I think those are the questions worth asking.

[Silas Cordell]

I disagree. I think if it comes down to people being expected to learn the same tricks to get around "no pre-measuring" rules that the wargrogs mistake for skill, then there's no better argument for just up and allowing people to measure before they take a shot.

I don't know what a "wargrog" is, so I'm not sure whether I should be challenging you to a duel or not...

Regardless, none of the "tricks" are mandatory, and developing the pure skill of estimation renders them unnecessary in any case. I also maintain that there is a large difference in scale between being able to calculate an unknown distance based on some known observations and variables and having access to perfect knowledge of all distances on the tabletop.

Beyond that, I can't say I'm that interested in the far-reaching applications etc, etc. I understand your position, but I don't share it. If the game does someday change to allow pre-measuring, I'll pre-measure things, but I won't vote for it if asked.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Regardless, none of the "tricks" are mandatory, and developing the pure skill of estimation renders them unnecessary in any case. I also maintain that there is a large difference in scale between being able to calculate an unknown distance based on some known observations and variables and having access to perfect knowledge of all distances on the tabletop.

If that were the case, you would not have people developing these cheats so widescale.

[Marcalla]

I was thinking about the random Charge mechanic just last night as regards to adding pre-measuring in Malifaux.

First off, I think you'd need to add some random mechanic to charging if you also add pre-measuring.

This isn't that hard really within the current card mechanics. The Cg value can be kept and then a card flipped when a Model charges adding to its Cg value using the severity level of the card (IE damage severity) to the charge value. +1 inch for minor on up to +4 inches for a red joker and auto fail for a black joker.

Just some quick thoughts.

[Mach_5]

I disagree. Random charges were necessary with premeasure in Fantasy only because of the "my army goes, then your army goes" mechanics. And also because it would be silly if Elves *always* got the charge on humans etc. Basically an army with a movement advantage could wait just out of range of the opposing army until it decided to charge everything in to its best advantage. And the opponent would not have much to do about it.

In Malifaux there's a couple of reasons why random charge distance isn't needed. First, its alternating activations. So I see that I'm in range to charge you, and I do. Now it's your turn and I'm in range of your entire crew for whatever kind of counter charge or other move you have planned. Second, a charge is still a single attack by a single model. Maybe you hit, maybe you don't. Most models won't outright kill an opposing model with a single charge attack even if they do hit, so the outcome will never have the same reprecussions as a timely combo charge in Fantasy.

In my eyes, while there's a sliver of skill involved in estimating ranges, it will still add time to the game in my opinion while a person decides what he thinks is in range. Then there's also the argument of whether or not something is in range if the measurement is difficult to make and you can't tell if you're just in or maybe out by 1/16". Without premeasuring, if I've made a charge and it's at all questionable if I'm in range or not then I'd be a lot more choked if the result went my opponents way and the charge failed, as that's 2 wasted action points. Alternatively if you premeasure you can both see the measurement before the action happens and if it's questionable and my opponent didn't think it was in I'd just do something different. IMO, the increased speed of play and the possibly reduced disagreements are worth trading a small amount of skill lost by adding in premeasuring.

[Sevorin]

The alternating activations are a valid point, for most crews, however dont you think alpha strike crews would have a distinct advantage with premeasure without random charge? Any crew with multiple activations can deal with it and then put up a defense to your answer.

[Mach_5]

Alpha strike is a powerful ability even without premeasure. But with premeasuring, in order to alpha-strike multiple charges against one or more enemies you still must get everyone involved with the alpha strike in range to set up the charges, and your opponent who also knows the distances involved, must let it happen.

Also, there are plenty of powerful ranged and spell attacks in malifaux that put out as much if not more damage than the average charge damage might be. Alpha-striking Family who are mostly ranged strikers would not be affected at all by a random charge distance rule (aside from maybe gunfighters).