Sex in the Game - a barriers to entry discussion

[morella]

I see reasons on both sides for ladies not wanting/not feeling welcomed to play. From guys and their inablility to act around females, and from ladies looking in on a room full of guys and thinking they would not be caught dead in the room. I think the barriers will always be there, coming from both sides.

I think this is the biggest issue for me - the general awkwardness (on both sides of the fence) of walking into a room full of strangers and finding a way to get into what's going on while leaving all the gendered stuff at the door.

I'd be interested to know how other women ( and men) found out about/decided to join the community, as I think that can really point out ways in which to market gaming to a wider audience.

---------- Post added at 07:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 AM ----------

And to add - the times I have been in a gaming store and thought, "why am I here again?" was due to age and maturity of the customers there at that time - of the people old enough to have real jobs, I've never gotten negative impressions

Adding again - Meaning, most of the times I've been in the LGS, the behavior I've observed is fine. There have been a few occasions where younger, immature groups dominate the place, and these are the only times I've felt embarassed to be a gamer (not that all young people behave that way)

Edited July 18, 2012 by morella

[the imp]

I got into gaming at 14 because fantasy worlds that I could manipulate seemed exciting and cool to me. I got into Malifaux 20 years later because it offered the most interesting mix of genre elements and game play. To be honest, the community came with my interest in the games. I think it's mostly made up of good people, but maturity and mental health problems seem to come up pretty frequently. That may just be the people I play with though.

[Dustcrusher]

Any woman who does not play, play other games, or play casually (like my girlfriend) will not come onto these forums.

You forgot about the painters. There are women on this board who do not play. Some of them have been around since before Wyrd made their first mini. Some of them just like to paint.

I am just wondering if we are asking the right question(s) and I am not sure if anything will come of this other than some saying they take issue and others trying to dismiss it...

If even one person learns something or considers a perspective they haven't before, that's worth it to me. Sometimes small changes are better than none at all.

It seems no one is questioning that the game utilizies stereo-types that permeate this genre so then the question that comes to mind is: just because everyone else has done it and continues to do it, is that acceptable?

It's important to note the difference between "stereotype" and "convention." Convention is "dwarves are sturdy, live underground and are expert miners and engineers." Stereotype is characters in the setting assuming that Bob the Dwarf must be a good engineer and a tireless miner because he's a dwarf.

Using a few conventions helps newcomers feel that they can relate to the setting. Zombiesmith's Quar race and their world use the hook of "what if World War 1 went on for centuries?" and dumps it into an alien setting. Sure, the WW1 angle is something of a convention, but it's really well done. The fluff even reads like dry military history books, and the art reflects this.

The problem with conventions comes in relying too much on them- how many fantasy worlds have slim, fair, forest-loving Elves, the Dwarves I mentioned above, big dumb Ogres, ugly, green, rapid-regenerating Trolls, etc? The funny part is, good writing and development can overcome this (I think the first Dragon Age is a good example of this).

I've seen a few systems try to come up with something completely new, and it rarely takes off. Far more common are the ones that claim they are "really unique" and yet are the same conventions with a couple of tweaks (our dwarves live on the surface!).

---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

I think it's kind of funny that the men on here seem to have more issues about these things than the women. And by funny, I mean I'm chuckling - not at anyone, but at the sort of upside downness of it.

Honestly, it's because an abundance of gratuitously sexed-up miniatures keeps the tabletop gamer stereotype alive. My motivation is as much a selfish one as it is being anti-sexist.

I don't have a problem with miniatures as pinups, or with female miniatures being pretty (though some in the middle between gorgeous and hideous would be nice). People have the right to make and sell whatever they want to- I'm not calling for anything to be banned (some people love to assume this).

I'd like to see more companies take one of two approaches (Wyrd is already, IMHO, taking the first):

1) Make a "sensible" sculpt and a "pinup" sculpt. This gives everyone a choice.

2) Dark Age and Eden do have scantily clad females, but many of the males are also scant in the clothing department. Equal opportunity, more or less.

I think Ted is right- it's only a matter of time. As more women enter the market, the demands will shift. Video games and comic books are struggling with this now, but it looks like the demand for stronger, less eye-candied female characters is growing.

[morella]

Honestly, it's because an abundance of gratuitously sexed-up miniatures keeps the tabletop gamer stereotype alive. My motivation is as much a selfish one as it is being anti-sexist.

I think Ted is right- it's only a matter of time. As more women enter the market, the demands will shift. Video games and comic books are struggling with this now, but it looks like the demand for stronger, less eye-candied female characters is growing.

I hadn't really thought about that argument, but at the same time, I don't see how this is any different than generalized male stereotypes. And I guess my point is, I've probably known more women attracted (both in the aesthetic and other sense) to the traditional fantasy/sci-fi pin-up type images (to the extant of having such images permanently etched in their skin) than those who would prefer a more realistic approach. I do think that if there is a market for it, however, producers would be wise to differentiate their products to accommodate both sides as much as possible.

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 PM ----------

Should add, I think it is very charming that so many of you have such strong opinions on this issue. It's just not something I've ever bought into - never felt the need.

[morella]

Adding again - me and my obsessive need for clarity - and then I think I'll be done with this, because it can go on and on forever as was stated earlier by someone.

It seems to me that the men who have spoken up are not necessarily uncomfortable with the depiction of female stereotypes per se, but rather are railing against the male stereotype as consumer of such images. Which is totally cool. My problem with a refrain that seems to keep coming up is - as more women become consumers, it will increase the options for everyone. And that is what I sort of take issue with - not here only, but in general - because two women have popped up in this thread saying, I'm fine with the sorts of sexy images we are used to, in fact, I (may) prefer it - and it kind of feels like we've had people respond in a way that tries to turn it around, like we don't know what we care for. And I don't think it is intentional at all, so I'm not picking on anyone. I can assure everyone, I'm not buying the imagery because society has made me believe it is my role to be submissive. I fight female stereotypes by doing my best to be stronger, smarter, and in some cases way more obnoxious than traditional cultural roles dictate. You men have it much tougher I fear - you must fight male stereotypes by being more sensitive and compassionate, which is often viewed as weakness (and that stinks). So I applaud those of you who have spoken up here, because I assume you do so elsewhere when the stakes are much higher, which takes courage. But don't hope that more women will change demand for a certain type of product - demand it yourself if it is what you would rather see.

And @Tedpro, I get where you're coming from, but I am not sure where LGBT roles might come into this game as it would require a different sort of personal look at the lives of the characters that would be difficult to fit with the story. That said, I don't think we've seen enough about most of the characters to assume that they aren't.

Anyway, this thread has expanded my vocabulary. Never hear broadsword babe or cheesecake in my life. Though, all I hear is "mmm. ... cake" because I like cake. In future, if anyone I encounter (IRL, not here) tries to put me in the stereotype box (which really doesn't happen to me ever) I'm totally going to beat them with my broadsword.

[Gruesome]

My perspective is different.

My local GW is typically full of the future of gaming... Kids.

What will those kids play when they are older?

IMO:

1. Nothing.

2. GW game

3. Non-GW game

In that order.

My son just turned 12 and loves Malifaux. Every friend of his that he has shown the game has loved the game. In particular, two of his friends actually play GW games and want to stop and start getting Malifaux instead, but their parents do not want to start investing in a new game, so they are pretty much GW or nothing until they can afford their own stuff and what are they likely to do then? Pitch the hundreds of dollars of stuff they have devoted their hobby to for years?

There are models we will not buy. That makes me sad.

[Dustcrusher]

Going to blog a longer version- been wanting to for ages.

Bullet points:

• I guess I'm a purist. I don't mind pinup style minis, or minis of sexy characters (if there's some context as to why, like, say, Lilith). I don't like it when the sexy seems gratuitous and out of place (which is something that each person has to define for his/herself).
  
• IMO there's still a double standard in the overall hobby. With the exception of a few old crones and townsfolk, female miniatures are largely "pretty first, everything else later" while male miniatures are not. I don't like it.
  
• I like variety. Miniatures depicting beautiful people aren't as interesting when every model in the range is a bombshell (and that's not gender specific). I like that there are varying degrees of attractiveness and/or body types in the Union Miners, Latigo Pistoleros, and Ten Thunders Brothers packs. To reiterate, Wyrd is doing it right.
  
• I also like it when sculptors push the range of what is beautiful (or repulsive). GW's newer Daemonettes are a good example of this. The old ones tried for it, but weren't quite as successful- they looked like they fell short of a "gorgeous babes with weird extremities" look.
  
• Regardless of my feelings on the sculpts, artwork, etc. in gaming, the biggest problem is dudes with poor hygiene and attitude. I don't say "social skills" because I've met plenty of (mostly younger) guys who lack in this department, yet are never rude or obnoxious- they are just too quiet or meek to have a game with. I have friends of both genders who cite this as the reason they don't get into tabletop gaming.

Hopefully I didn't attempt to speak for everyone else. It still bothers me that I may have put words in someone else's mouth, even if everyone knows it wasn't intentional.

Gruesome- what if the kids sold off the GW stuff and used the proceeds to buy their Malifaux crews?

[morella]

I think GW does cater to new (young) players - which is one of the reasons I went looking elsewhere, as I felt that they just didn't care about the veteran gamers. My LGS stays open til midnight most days, so you can miss the younger crowd if you wait until past their bedtime.

I really liked the Daemonettes from 10-15 years ago (the studio paintjob was blue/white). But they were quite explicit. Not sure what they look like now.

I've not been particularly sensitive to the hygiene issues others note - I guess it varies by location or I've failed to notice. Maybe I just have a poor sense of smell.

And Dustcrusher, I think you expressed yourself fine (and did not speak for others) - as I said, you brought up a different viewpoint, which is what made me reconsider/add to mine, so thanks.

[Brushmistress]

I would like to preface my response to this very interesting thread with "I haven't read every post". I just wanted to put my brief 2 cents in on the issue at hand.

I am a miniature painter (a female of course). I am also a gamer - I do not play much in the way of miniatures games these days, mostly due to time constraints, but I've played Warhammer Fantasy & 40K, Mordheim, Warmachine and Hordes. My fave shall always be Mordheim, but I digress.

My handle/screen name is "brushmistress" - this name is a blatant objectification of myself as a woman. I am aware of it, I'm proud of it. When I'm standing in a booth at conventions, I proudly refer to myself as a "booth babe" - to give my male fans a fare shake at sexual stereotypes, I refer to them as "fan boyz". I do not say, speak or write any of these terms in a derogatory fashion. Simply as endearing kitsch.

There's a certain degree of self assurance that is necessary in order to work your way into a community that is largely populated by men, and accepting the age old idiom "sex sells" is an excellent starting point. I don't think it's the off-kilter man to woman ratio in tabletop gaming that is a turn off for women. I certainly don't think that it's the introduction of half to mostly naked miniatures either. Not to completely simplify the questions (and sound somewhat misogynistic), but I think most women are entirely too self-absorbed and sheepish to want to interact with men on anything other than a wine and dine level. If you're reading this thread, you're probably not one of those types. I genuinely think that some women are just born "tomboys" if you will. We're not interested in watching the Kardashians or shopping for fancy soap dispensers to put in the guest bathrooms. We want to "be one of the guys". We just happen to have boobs. Some of us even have husbands who put up with our crazy gamer nonsense instead of the other way around.

I have no issues what so ever with sexually driven miniature concepts. I love painting them. I would imaging that you could poll the earth over and ask the question "would you rather look at the naked male form or the naked female form?" and get a resounding "female" in response. The female body has naturally alluring aesthetics, regardless of body type.

I think I'm rambling now...anyhow, I genuinely feel that the surge of "hot chick" miniatures in the market today has done more good than bad for women entering the hobby. I know I'd rather look at a table full of scantily clad gunslingers than a bunch of unimaginative armored men.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Brushmistress

[Sliver Chocobo]

I agree with Brushmistress with everything except boothbabes, I also agree with Penny arcade when they banned them from PAX, but that's getting off topic here.

Malifaux does have lot of under dress women, but they do fit the world around them and it is a fantasy setting not unltra realistic

[Justin]

Here is a question to all:

On the wiki we have a page entitled Girls Play Malifaux Too, written by...a girl. No big surprise there. I let it stay up, because I'm very easy going, but I have always sort of been of the mind that making a whole page dedicated to it was sort of self defeating. My attitude is "Of course girls play Malifaux too!" It's something that shouldn't need to be pointed out and, by doing so, we make it appear even more fringe than it really is.

Thoughts?

[Gruesome]

I think GW does cater to new (young) players - which is one of the reasons I went looking elsewhere, as I felt that they just didn't care about the veteran gamers.

There is a pretty big difference between catering to new/younger players and having a product that you do not want to be seen by new/younger players.

Now, there are very few models that fit into that category for us with the Wyrd line of models, but I am typically pretty sensitive to it.

[morella]

@Justin - I had read that a while ago. I don't see a problem with it being there, and I guess it is fine if the target audience is for younger, new gamers who are maybe freaked out by the whole "but what will my friends think" attitude. Honestly, and no disrespect intended to the writer, but my initial reaction when I read it was to feel a bit insulted. But then, I got into gaming on my own initiative, not because of some guy. So, I am not the target audience. And I already posted back towards the beginning on my issue with the "gamer girl" label, but that's just me now.

@Gruesome - I misinterpreted your post - I get what you mean now I think - that if the target audience is young, then the product shold be appropriate for that age group. And I agree. If I'm still missing the point, let me know.

[Justin]

my initial reaction when I read it was to feel a bit insulted.

This is what concerns me.

[morella]

@ Justin - I'm ambivalent about it - on the one hand, it might ease the apprehensions of a younger lady, and the older ladies like me probably aren't going to be put off by it, I think, because we've probably experienced so much misguided marketing in our lives. But it could easily be cleaned up a bit. My main problem is in the "Men of the game table rejoice!" section - which could be removed or edited.

Edited July 18, 2012 by morella

[Gruesome]

@Gruesome - I misinterpreted your post - I get what you mean now I think - that if the target audience is young, then the product shold be appropriate for that age group. And I agree. If I'm still missing the point, let me know.

My point is simply that, as a gaming dad, I like games that I can play with my son, and eventually my daughter. When the complexity of the game is no longer the issue because they are old enough to comprehend the rules, I prefer that the content not be another hurdle.

I am not trying to say that I want Malifaux's "target audience" to be kids... Or adults... Or men or women. Just "gamers that like a mixture of cool stuff". And Malifaux has that. There is just no chance that Nekima and a couple others will be owned here anytime soon. And I am pretty "liberal" in that respect compared to many parents of my son's friends.

I think much of this thread is about Women's opinions, so I will leave it at that. I just wanted to get out there that the issue of

"Sex in the Game - a barriers to entry discussion" is about more than gender to me.

[the imp]

I understand precisely where Gruesome is coming from. We had a young girl (12) express interest in Malifaux at my LGS. She liked the look of the models, but her mother spotted Collette's art from book two and shot down the idea. A little less cheesecake wouldn't take anything away from the game and would open it to a wider audience.

Ironically, they were in the shop to buy her dad an Imperial Guard army. 40K has no shortage of scantily clad women, but their daughter isn't going to be playing it I suppose.

[ThePandaDirector]

I step out of the conversation and you guys find the right issues; great thing to see and interesting viewpoints from all =]

At the end of the day I think it comes down to my core line of thought - the current perception of the industry and how to reach wider demographics.

So we can agree that there are women who play games and aren't really put off by anything other than poor gaming enviorment and atmosphere (same as anybody). We can also agree that a majority are a little less put off by sexualised imagery as they are by repetetive and cliched designs.

As far as highlighting female gamers, I agree that, same as analogue gaming as a whole, you need to potentially misrepresent the ratio and just take for granted that lots of people involved in the hobby are female. It might be bold of me to say, but it seems many "gamer ladies" have a number of the same attitudes as the men in a tom boy fashion, while the men and women put off fit less into that particular mindset. It's the natural challenge of having such a diverse community. At the end of the day the perceived majoirity is all too often a loud minority and this industry doesn't communicate well enough to make the distinction.

However, you need to make any minority feel welcome, and I generalsie that as simply "non-gamers". The percentage of non-gamers is far greater than gamers and the ratio is more proportinally in favour of non-gamers/gamers compared to male gamers/female gamers. So I target non-gamers and accept that many of the reasons women don't get involved in the hobby are the same reasons a lot of non-gamers don't take the plunge. There are also things that push away veterans (male and female), which also has to be taken into account.

I would say that we need to develop new ways of portraying, communicating and stimulating the experience of every demographic whether veteran, noob, male, female or panda. This discussion is more than just sex, but it is one of the sources of the wider issue that faces the expansion of the industry.

So I'm glad I posted this. It had a rough start but the information and opinions are all valuable to me. Thank you to those who contributed =]

Edit: For parents wanting to treat their spawn with Wyrd goodness, you really need to look into Puppet Wars come Gencon 2012. That game is perfect for the little pests =]

[aka_hazard]

I just want to add a quick observation on the subject of '...had employees talk to the guy I walk in with...'

I was in a restaurant and on the next table was a couple with their daughter.

When the waitress approached their table she went straight to the woman and spoke to her as the 'person in charge'. This immediately caught my attention because it seemed odd. It transpired that the woman was a British daytime TV presenter.

So I don't think that particular issue is a gamer thing, I think it is more a society convention that we normally don't notice.

[Ratty]

It's actually a training issue, more than anything else. Working in a Games Shop is actually a hard job. You need to be super aware of customers body language. And to be honest most Games Shop are independant, the employees don't have any formal training.

If a couple came into a store I wouldn't jump on them immediately, as a) being jumped as soon as you enter the door puts people off, you don't have any information to work on. And even if I was fairly sure of which of them was interested in gaming and what they were interested in when I did approach them I would be very open, address both of them and ask open questions to find out about their hobby. However, 8 years selling games.

And the problem is caused by the fact that working in gaming retail, generally, pays peanuts. Companies like GW have huge retention problems, generally a staff member will last a year at most. So the staff in Gaming stores don't have the experience necessary to deal with these things.

So what do you get. Well generally jumped on before your even really in the store, They will then try to sell you a Baneblade without even finding what your interested in (maybe your a painter), and then maybe they will then waffle at you for 20 minutes about their favorite army.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Ratty

[G. Footman]

this sort of topic comes up on Kotaku all the time too, usually with people using phrases like 'big boobs make a character irrelevant and uninteresting." in an attempt to make themselves sound more intellectual, or make out like anyone who admits to liking it is a bad person. My take, I like boobs, I like sexy women, I'm not going to apologize about it. But I don't buy a game, mini, or comic book for boobs, I buy it because I enjoy painting the minis, reading the story, the lore, etc. I'm also not going to just go "oh, that character has big breasts, I now have no interest in this character whatsoever." or make out that anyone else who likes that sort of thing is a horrible horrible person.

basically people need to get over themselves and not be so easily offended.

---------- Post added at 06:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------

There is a pretty big difference between catering to new/younger players and having a product that you do not want to be seen by new/younger players.

Now, there are very few models that fit into that category for us with the Wyrd line of models, but I am typically pretty sensitive to it.

GW also until recently had topless dark elf women and daemonettes with 5-6 naked boobs, and was still going for the younger crowd

[ThePandaDirector]

@G.Footman: I don't think anyone here is being silly and any opinion shared has been reasonable and fair (can't speak for Kotaku). I personally don't link sex to miniatures because I think it's a bit weird, but I like pretty models and characters that appeal to my imagination, they're just different kinds of stimulation. That said, those who are offended aren't saying "that model has big boobs, I'm off" they're saying "every model seems to have big boobs, can I get some aesthical equality here?" It's the same issue with the realistic/stylisic debate; some people just don't like cartoonie, out of proportion models. The reason this topic can be more controversal is because it links to the social norms established by the media (where miniatures play a tiny tiny role) that the only women with an interesting character or story, are those of certain builds. I can understand why people are sick of that (especially if it doesn't connect to their idea of "sexy") and why both sides can get offended. But like I said, this dicussion has been fair and balanced and I'd like it to stay that way.

@Ratty: I was always taught the hard tell, not the hard sell; tell it like it is and don't get greedy. I wonder if the issue with training can be offset with simular techniques as attracting a large mass of non-gamers. Interconnectedness between stores and store communities would help them help each other.

Edited July 18, 2012 by ThePandaDirector

[Gruesome]

basically people need to get over themselves and not be so easily offended.

Don't confuse "offense" with respect and restraint.

Maybe it says something about me that I am more excited by this:

http://wyrd-games.net/shop/Alternative-B-te-Noire.html

Than I am by this?:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/kernsa-sword-melusine-mother.html

Maybe I am secure enough with myself or something, but I cannot think of any model of any size, including blow-up, that I have ever bought for its "sex appeal".

Even when I was a teenager (before there were miniature games like this), I cannot imagine having done it as I would have been trying to use whatever cash I had for dates and a chance at... you know... the real thing?

Edited July 18, 2012 by Gruesome

[Ratty]

Don't confuse "offense" with respect and restraint.

Maybe it says something about me that I am more excited by this:

http://wyrd-games.net/shop/Alternative-B-te-Noire.html

Than I am by this?:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/kernsa-sword-melusine-mother.html

Not really, that's a really ugly model. The proportions are off, the stance is boring...... And it was after these I noticed that she had oversized breasts, which really doesn't add anything to a bad model.

There are some very nice nude models out there, but they are nice not because they are naked, not because they have breasts, they are nice because they have natural poses, good proportions, nice facial features. But tbh, I think of it the same way as looking at Greek sculpture. There is nothing inherently evil or immoral about the female form, or finding it aesthetically pleasing.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Ratty

[Justin]

@ Justin - I'm ambivalent about it - on the one hand, it might ease the apprehensions of a younger lady, and the older ladies like me probably aren't going to be put off by it, I think, because we've probably experienced so much misguided marketing in our lives. But it could easily be cleaned up a bit. My main problem is in the "Men of the game table rejoice!" section - which could be removed or edited.

Done.