Suggested Lilith Changes

[Sliver Chocobo]

First of this isn't a Lilith is OP please nurf her or Lilith is underpowered buffs please. I just feel like Lilith does fit the theme of her crew or not as well as she could. I thing is because abilities such as irresistible and blood sense were introduced in book two and not one

So first change kinda obvious but give her blood sense and irresistible, this could be balanced out by lowering Liliths Df to 6 or even as low as 5

Second change is to give her more options with her (0)

Blood from stone, we all know is terrible ability. changed it from a (1) to a (0) and discard two control cards instead of soulstones and think it get some use (ok it just a simple buff, only one promise)

Second (0) it would make sense with her dropped Df that she gained a defensive ability such as Veil Apperance from Tuco or a similar ability (possible even change her Wk to 5)

Final change most controversial, I don't even know how balanced it is. But remove Lilith's cache and give her the following ability

Blood as Stone: Lilith may spend blood counters as if they were soulstones

[KoreyMalifaux]

I don't think it would be necessary to add more defensive abilities with her built in defense trigger.

---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------

I like the idea of using blood counters as soulstones as weel, unless playing an opponent with no living or undead models

[LordFett]

I've always thought her disappear should do more than make her harder to hit. Give her a push of the opponent's melee range +1".

[Mournafein]

I've got to disagree with ever dropping her defense. Def 8 is nice, but it doesn't make her crazy resilient, either. It helps a lot, especially against minions... Most masters fight almost on par with it, though. I agree about blood from stone. Soulstones are way too precious to be throwing away for one damned blood counter.

I don't like the idea of getting rid of her Cache. At all. Neverborn are expensive SS wise. It's be a bad idea to throw her in a situation like the Outcasts.

I think she should get irresistible.. Or a low terrifying. It's really ridiculous being WP 6 and not being able to flip a terrifying check, sometimes... Being the 'Mother of Monsters.'

Giving easier access to blood counters would be nice... Especially for those of us that don't want to just take desperate mercs for the purpose of blood counter farming.... I think it's stupid to be forced to do something like that to be viable.

Edit: Sorry if that seems critical! They're good ideas, but Lilith simply doesn't have enough going for her with her defensiveness. She's a beat stick, in a crew of beat sticking. Haha.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Mournafein

[ukrocky]

I've always thought her disappear should do more than make her harder to hit. Give her a push of the opponent's melee range +1".

It makes her effective defense 10 and you don't think it's good enough? o.O

[Mournafein]

ukrocky: The only catch there is that they've got to miss. And usually people are well aware of her trigger... So anyone with Soulstones is going to make sure they hit, as well as they can. But that's another story... Effective df 10 is nice, though.

[cain]

She should have a magical weapon. Her swords damage is already on the low side, given how powerful a lot of Book 2 minions are. Trying to kill one of Kirais spirits (2-2-3 dam against 8 wounds anyone?) is so futile without any damage spells.

[ukrocky]

ukrocky: The only catch there is that they've got to miss. And usually people are well aware of her trigger... So anyone with Soulstones is going to make sure they hit, as well as they can. But that's another story... Effective df 10 is nice, though.

And what if your crew has no offensive soulstone users? Such as Ressers. You then have to kill her with minions, which is nigh on impossible.

[LupusFerreus]

I'm just going to throw this out there: I don't see the need to make any changes to Lilith.

[Sliver Chocobo]

She should have a magical weapon. Her swords damage is already on the low side, given how powerful a lot of Book 2 minions are. Trying to kill one of Kirais spirits (2-2-3 dam against 8 wounds anyone?) is so futile without any damage spells.

It's the same as Lady J and she doesn't need to be magical

About Lilith defence, apart from have a really high defence stat and defence trigger, pretty much give her the highest defence in game but I do find it a bit lacking. In a sense that all Lilith is a big beatstick with high defence in a crew of big beatstick

---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 PM ----------

I'm just going to throw this out there: I don't see the need to make any changes to Lilith.

Like I said at the top this isn't about trying to get balanced, it about trying to get her to match the theme of her crew

[ukrocky]

It's the same as Lady J and she doesn't need to be magical

About Lilith defence, apart from have a really high defence stat and defence trigger, pretty much give her the highest defence in game but I do find it a bit lacking. In a sense that all Lilith is a big beatstick with high defence in a crew of big beatstick

Errrr...transposition can be useful if you wanna play her non-beaststick like.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Errrr...transposition can be useful if you wanna play her non-beaststick like.

True, but rest of the crew are about generating and using blood counter to grow/mature or turn the tot's into Lelu and Lilitu's. Lilith doesn't get involved here, what I'm saying is you can a lilith crew with any of the other Neverborn masters and would be just as effective

[ukrocky]

And all this is opposed to masters like Marcus who has no movement/swapping tricks, lower defense, hits weaker and so on. How hard for Lilith

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not sure how people play Lilith to think they don't need Df 8. It's the second post recently I've seen lowering her Df suggested.

For me this is the single most used stat in every game. What she does and how I use her happens because of her Df8, and her speed. Getting Irresistible instead would break the model for me. She is not supposed to avoid combat. She's supposed to stick in and tank for the rest of the crew - the Wicked is there so that the opponent cannot ignore her and has to fight. Irresistible on the other hand is there to discourage people from wasting AP on attacking models they may not have to fight. An Ability with exactly opposite purpose.

That's how I see it, but obviously it may be playstyle issue.

The fact she doesn't generate Blood Counters when she uses Brood Mother is an annoyance, but I suppose it is a balancing factor.

Sign me in with "no change needed" crowd.

[bashamer]

letting her farm blood counters w/ blood sense would be really weird. It would make her crazy effective in a grow list, and well.... I prefer to have my masters not as pigeon holed.

So yeah, I prefer not to the changes proposed.

Def 8 is annoying, but honestly who doesn't know of a way around that.

[Mournafein]

I'd really like the blood sense idea. It just doesn't make much sense to me that she doesn't have it and Nekima and bbs do. The master has to waste ap to drain blood but two minions don't? =\ I almost never use Alluring, too... I'm not sure how much I should use it... But the extra attack is almost always worth it.

As far as the rezzers, you were saying, chocobo, they have Kirai (Spirit crew, 'Nough said), McMourning (6" melee, crazy triggers, healmonger), Seamus (Heavy ranged damage, summons, luring, etc), and Nicodem (I'm not overly familiar with him). So really, you're looking at getting more attacks in or with more effects... So, either Lilith will waste cards and Soulstones to avoid damage... Or they'll miss... I'm thinking they'll miss some, but some WILL get through... So, either way you're looking at either Df 10 and defending up... Or df 8 and trying their luck.

But I'm not saying your logic doesn't make sense... I'm simply saying that the practicality of it is like pushing Lilith to avoid melee more. I like being able to throw her in.

Does any of what I'm saying make sense, or am I just an idiot? Haha.

[cain]

It's the same as Lady J and she doesn't need to be magical

Lady J. gets +2 damage without help, and up to extra +2 with DM support. 7-8-10 Damage is a bit different story, Lilith has no way to get a damage boost.

And all this is opposed to masters like Marcus who has no movement/swapping tricks, lower defense, hits weaker and so on. How hard for Lilith

His damage is the same as Liliths (with Bear) but without the +flip. And its magical.

And we dont talk about throwing a Wp-attacking Shikome into Liliths face after howling.

He may be a bit underwhelming, but he still has some stuff to show if you dont respect him.

Such as Ressers. You then have to kill her with minions, which is nigh on impossible.

You dont have to. When i face Nicodem it always ends up with: Look what a beautiful RigorMortis statue. Or against Seamus she runs away like a small girl. The normal Lilith demon force is so weak to any Wp-based duels.

Edited July 2, 2012 by cain

[Fetid Strumpet]

How does Lilith run away from Terror other than exceptionally bad luck? She has a really good WP of 6, and the ability to use SS, and even aSeamus has no way to force you to fail by spending stones or cheating high cards.

[cain]

If you need a 10 vs an unsupported Seamus, failing is not always bad lucks faulth. More when -Wp effects from other models kick in.

even aSeamus has no way to force you to fail by spending stones or cheating high cards

Jack Daw anyone?

[marful]

The key point here, is that Lilith is superfluous in a Grow List. Any other Neverborn Master can run a Grow List just as well due to the way you generate Blood Counters via Desperate Mercs (or Spawn Mothers + Grupps) and not with Blood From Stone. And a being the "mother of monsters" she should be doing something that benifits a grow list.

The only two abilities she has that directly interact with other Nephilim are Brood mother and Blood From Stone.

While Brood Mother allows Lilith to tag team another model, it doesn't really allow Lilith to synergize with other Nephilim, it just allows Lilith to beatstick down a single model. Which, is very useful and has allowed me to achieve objectives many times (particularly in combination with a transposition to isolate a target next to Lilith and Nekima who were hiding behind terrain) but does nothing for Nephilim in general.

Blood from Stone is a horrible conversion ratio of 2 Soulstone for 1 Blood Counter. A Desperate Merc is a much better Soulstone to Blood Counter return. All successful grow lists require a Desperate Merc (or 2) or a Spawn Mother + Grupps. The only time this talent is useful is when you have a Terror Tot to grow and you aren't running a grow list and you don't have a Black Blood Shaman or something to feed on. Even then growing the Terror Tot is situational as you need that 9:masks or greater in your hand to get the spell off. And if you stop and think about how absurd it would be to have Lilith hire a mercenary just to feed on it every time she was about to get into a scrap; it's really quite silly!

Another thing I find odd, is that Lilith, nor Nekima actually do anything with Blood Counters. Except spend it on Terror Tots or Young Nephilim. And if you aren't running a grow list, there is no point to Blood Counters. I'd like to see Blood Counters useful for something other than growing Terror Tots or Young Nephilim (or the Black Blood Shaman).

As to Lilith's stats? I think they are really solid. Her defense and defensive trigger are huge. Actually they are freaking huge! Defensively, Lilith is slightly over powered requiring a soulstone user or high point cost Minion with a on attack to really successfully take down. Which means she doesn't need to burn through soulstones to defend herself against lesser minions and only against other big minions and masters.

Again, offensively, Lilith is fine. While her Greatsword doesn't end up doing as much damage as Lady Justice will do (due to Lady J. having Critical Strike and Sword Style), Lilith is Fast and her Greatsword always gets :fate on damage flips (Whereas Lady J. has to choose between 3 abilities only one of which receives :fate on damage flips). While Lilith is definitely a beatstick, she is not supposed to be the greatest of the beatsticks. I think those should be relegated to Lady J. and to a lesser extent, Nekima.

If I were to change Lillith, I would also change Nekima simultaneously.

First, I'd change Blood From Stone from a 2 to 1 Soulstone to Blood Counter ratio to a 1 to 1 ratio. I think the 1 AP cost is fine as it forces Lilith to choose whether she is going to help grow Nephilim or do things herself. Allowing her to do both is a little too much.

Second, I'd give Lilith Blood Sense. Self explanatory.

Third, I'd remove Nurture Nephilim and Nephilim Heart from Nekima and give it to Lilith. (Makes more sense, as Lilith is the "Mother of Monsters" and Nephilim Heart has been changed to only affect Terror Tots and Young Nephilim.)

The last change to Lilith (and Nekima) would be a new abililty that allows them to use Blood Counters to perform Healing flips and only healing flips. Call it Quicken Blood or something. Allowing Lilith use them as straight Soulstones is too much considering how easily Lilith would generate them with Blood Sense and Drain Blood. I'd possibly drop Lilith's Soulstone cache by one over this last ability, but to really utilize it, it would mean you weren't spending the blood counters on growing things, which is a trade off. This one isn't a really necessary change but it allows Lilith (and possibly Nekima) to actually do something with Blood Counters if they aren't running a grow list.

This would allow Lilith to actually be the premier choice of Neverborn Masters for running grow lists (as she would actually do stuff for them) and allow you to run a grow list without having to take Nekima as well as 1-2 Desperate Mercs to feed upon (which is 15-17 Soulstone total...)

And since we've already taken 2 abilities away from Nekima (and possibly given her "Quicken Blood"), I'd swap the Throw Aside trigger with Onslaught and give her Alluring (either as a spell or talent) and call it a day. Alluring + Terrible Beauty means that Nekima will be strong in melee, wont get charged and will have to be taken down by range (which doesn't seem to be a big problem to do against her). She still has Irresistible which offsets her average defense and with Quicken Blood she wouldn't need 12 wounds and could be dropped to 10 WD or possibly 9-8.

[Q'iq'el]

The key point here, is that Lilith is superfluous in a Grow List. Any other Neverborn Master can run a Grow List just as well due to the way you generate Blood Counters via Desperate Mercs (or Spawn Mothers + Grupps) and not with Blood From Stone. And a being the "mother of monsters" she should be doing something that benifits a grow list..

Actually you'll find just as many Lilith players, especially among the old hands, who want Growth list to be gone and done with. Lilith is a frontline fighter who attracts the entire attention of the opponent to herself, while her kids do the nasty to the unexpecting victims. It shouldn't be about getting two Mature Nephilim in turn 1, it should be about movement, speed, tanking and properly executed multi-model charges.

As is Lilith helps with that reasonably well and we don't want her changed into something else. This is how she appears in the original fluff, this is how she should stay.

Black Blood Shaman is actually solid enough in his support role for that play style. A bit too slow, but that can be mitigated. Nekima on the other hand is complete mistake - a Growth list factory, when we needed something big to mesh with Lilith well... perhaps give some new tricks to the Nephilim.

But Nekima is being reworked and hopefully the Growth list will be gone altogether, once she is done with.

Being Mother of Monsters doesn't make you a child-growing machine, just like a Father of Mafia isn't standing there with bottles of milk and 4 Toddlers on each arm.

---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------

And let me add this, if you don't burn SS on defending Lilith, what do you burn them on? Because her Df may be high, but her Wd count is average. If you use her as the proper tank she is, my experience is as follow:

Out of 8 SS:

1-2 go for Transposition or Blood from Stone, depending on the opponent, game etc. But usually at least once per game I need to pull these so badly, I spend SS on those.

1 goes for initiative reflip in some scenarios. There are Strategies Lilith crew has really hard time with and you need to SS the initiative flips every now and then. Hardly ever more often than once per game.

1-2 go to boost the Strikes - she isn't there to kill models, her minions do it well enough. She just needs to keep the treat up so that the opponents keep focusing on her. So only when there is a good opportunity for a kill, she'll SS it.

4+ go for defense - either to boost her Df against really strong attacks (to ensure the trigger goes off) or to save her from Wp attacks.

No if the opponent is heavy on Wp attacks, you'll easily burn 8SS just on that - after all there will be more coming than 2-3 attacks a turn.

There are crews which do not task her Df, true. Then there are Punk Zombies or Rasputina where letting just one strike through can cost you your master.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Boscotopia]

Lady J. gets +2 damage without help, and up to extra +2 with DM support. 7-8-10 Damage is a bit different story, Lilith has no way to get a damage boost.

Where do you get this?

Lady Justice can improve her chance to hit and also improve her chance to do Severe damage, but her damage spread stays at 4/5/7. It would be nice if it was magical or was as powerful as you think it is. Lady J at 7/8/10 would be awesome........... but not fun for my opponent. Also, Death Marshals do not have any damage buffs besides their own +1 for Critical Strike on my cards. How do they give Lady J +2 damage?

---------- Post added 07-03-2012 at 12:02 AM ---------- Previous post was 07-02-2012 at 11:57 PM ----------

I do correct myself...... it is +1 for every ram, so she could do at most 6/7/9 if she flipped/cheated a high ram and burned a soulstone and flipped another Ram. Not likely to get two Rams in a flip to add to the Ram that she already has, but still possible.

[Mournafein]

Q, once again, you earn my respect for your opinion.

Though I do wish they'd fix nephilim, as well (Grow lists, Nekima, Lilith not getting blood counters, aLilith being blood counter deprived, etc).

[marful]

Actually you'll find just as many Lilith players, especially among the old hands, who want Growth list to be gone and done with. Lilith is a frontline fighter who attracts the entire attention of the opponent to herself, while her kids do the nasty to the unexpecting victims. It shouldn't be about getting two Mature Nephilim in turn 1, it should be about movement, speed, tanking and properly executed multi-model charges.

As is Lilith helps with that reasonably well and we don't want her changed into something else. This is how she appears in the original fluff, this is how she should stay.

I believe the "growth" mechanic is an intrinsic mechanic that has been around since Book 1. I don't see how you can then argue for doing away this growth mechanic and simultaneously quote Lilith as being "how she appears in the original fluff". And with my proposed changes, she would still have the option to be "a frontline fighter who attracts the entire attention of the opponent to herself" like you say "many" Lilith Players want and have the option to benefit a grow list as well.

She loses and gains absolutely nothing herself as all of the proposed changes are focused on providing for tots and young and don't boost her own combat/defense/survivability (with the exception of being able to spend Blood Counters like Soulstones to make a healing flip).

But Nekima is being reworked and hopefully the Growth list will be cone altogether' date=' once she is done with.[/quote']Again, I don't understand your desire to completely do away with Growth lists all together. That proposal would require changes to five models or make them obsolete (tot/young/mature nephilim, BBS and Nekima). Why exactly should an established theme be done away with completely? Is it simply because this play style is unpopular? Are there some who feel this play style overpowered? Other than repeatedly stating that you want to do away with Grow Lists, can you explain why, this established theme/mechanic should be done away with?

[Q'iq'el]

In the book 1 Growth was a side-line Nephilim-only mechanic for which no buffs were provided. The only thing Lilith could do to help it was get some extra Blood Counters and even that either by sacrificing Soulstones or not using Brood Mother (which is extremely useful ability and I tend to use it every turn I can).

So you would start with the crew you want to use (Tots+Youngs, Youngs+ Mature, more rarely Tots and Mature) and if you got lucky with your Control Hand draws, you'd grow one or two thorough the game. No Desperate Mercenaries, no wasting 1st turn on farming Blood Counters or any such silliness - straight forward into combat, as quick as you can.

The original Lilith fluff, first texts that have drawn people to her are in Wyrd Chronicles - her duel with Rasputina especially.

There's no way Lilith can be improved in her Growth department without taking away from her combat abilities. She already is one of the most powerful masters in the game - the excuse for that and the reason she isn't as vilified as some other NB masters is lower level of synergy with her crew.

And the moment proposed changes start with bringing down what actually is her defining feature in this game (high Df), well, it's almost a heresy. It's like a proposition to fix Nicodem starting with toning down Rigor Mortis and making it harder to Reanimate.

And all that while there's really nothing needing fix with Lilith. She still does quite well and can take multiple different builds.

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

And to add this... I don't spend SS on Blood Counters unless the opponent doesn't drop any. I also don't bring Desperate Mercenaries [usually just 1], unless I face Constructs etc.

More often than not those go for BBS rather than for direct Growth. You really don't have to Grow, don't need to Grow and I'd go as far as to say if you go Growth way, you hinder yourself.

You propose buffs to ability, which is a sideline gimmick to begin with, not her defining feature.