A quick fix for Hamelin

[magicpockets]

Okay, I stand by my previous points about Voracious Rats aura, Nix's Emptiness Lure Malifaux Citizen being a spell etc, but how about this for a fix -

Malifaux Rats cannot be activated on the turn they are summoned.

Theoryfauxed this to death and it seems like it could have a big impact on the game. Both in terms of balance and NPE.

-- EDIT --

Okay, so some of the thinking behind this -

1. It stops multiple activations of rats which is one of the biggest contributors to the Hamelin NPE

2. Rats can still move 10" or 5" and attack with correct use of (0) abilities

3. It means rats dropped form enemy models can't activate same turn. This is quicker, avoids confusion in swarms when new rats join and need to be activated, and gives a little balance to the mechanic

4. It means opponents can choose to kill rats early in the turn to slow the swarm down or avoid being attacked by them. This feels like the right balance of losing models/opportunity when your opponent kills your models combined with the respawn of the swarm.

5. It stops rats killing each other to heal Nix/stall activations etc

6. It creates opportunities where the Rat Catcher is exposed without armour (+2) as the swarm needs to move 10" forward, then he'd activate and move/kill all rats (to give the rats their wds back from writhing mass). This avoids the constant armour (+2) from rats move / RC moves / rats move again.

7. It stops things like Black Blood having unintended consequences against Hamelin (the amount of times I've taken down twins with rats because they keep respawning from damage they incur via Black Blood)

Let me know what you think guys

Edited June 26, 2012 by magicpockets

[Gruesome]

I like that its an uncomplicated and straightforward change. I cannot speak to its efficacy though.

It IS a large change for him though, so I find your signature block interesting that you'd suggest a change so large yet supposedly leaving him completely viable, yet claim that any currently perceived brokenness is simply misunderstanding on everyone else's part.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Gruesome

[magicpockets]

There is a difference between broken and OP. He needs 5 or 6 changes imo, but not a complete cuddle. And the rat thing is more about the NPE than anything else

[NinjaBreadMen]

I've never played Hamelin, though I've been reading up on him for when I do buy him. From what I've gathered this looks like it'd be a pretty tidy rule, at least for a minimum-fuss-fix.

Have you had a chance to test it in some friendly games? I'd be interested to hear how it works out. Would it be worth adding that rats summoned from a sacrificed Stolen or Wretch do have an activation, or is that an unnecesary complication

[kasin666]

be simpler to say they come into play paralized when summoned

[magicpockets]

NBM - I think it could be a complication, especially as you'll likely have an activation with the originating model first.

Kasin - I considered that and don't object to it (as it's the exact rule to use) but it didn't seem to "fit"

I've also expanded more on the reasoning in my first post

[kasin666]

have you play tested it at all?

[Oshova]

This seems like a nice fix. Along with the other proposed changes, I think this would help to bring Hamelin in line with the other masters. In comparison it isn't that different to the changes made to Dreamer/LCB. It gives your opponents some respite, and lets them feel as if they are succeeding in something when they kill the rats, instead of just helping the Hamelin player.

[graeme27uk]

I can see this working and making him easier for both sides.

You kill any model that has yet to activate and it loses its activation. This means that the same would happen with rats, the only different being that the rat is still around to activate next turn.

So killing a rat within the VR aura would not actually kill the rat, it would just stop it from activating that turn.

I'd also go with keeping it simple. The more exceptions you have then the more complex play becomes.

[JayBarlekamp]

I rather like this. You could add a line to the Malifaux Rat that says "When this model is brought into play as the result of another model being killed or sacrificed, it may not activate this turn."

[NinjaBreadMen]

be simpler to say they come into play paralized when summoned

Paralysis would remove their melee range. Since rats can't make disengaging strikes anyway, I can't think of any reason why no melee range would matter, but it may lead to unintended results elsewhere in the rules forther down the line... just a thought

[Csonti]

be simpler to say they come into play paralized when summoned

I don't know whether it's simpler or not but this is a weaker cuddle than the originally proposed version since you can play with activation order in case you have some paralized Rats.

Btw MP's proposal is quite nice.

[Guy in Suit]

I like this - would slow down the super swarm quite a bit. Doesn't really deal with Hammy brutalizing people on his own, but one step at a time.

[Cunning]

I like this - would slow down the super swarm quite a bit. Doesn't really deal with Hammy brutalizing people on his own, but one step at a time.

This is only 1 of 6 changes MP has suggested for Hamelin. As a whole I do think they help bring him down to a more evn level.

[Yosh]

Paralysis would remove their melee range. Since rats can't make disengaging strikes anyway, I can't think of any reason why no melee range would matter, but it may lead to unintended results elsewhere in the rules forther down the line... just a thought

No disengaging, right, but they do count as possible targets for shooting into melee.

An idea: no activating for a rat guy if it originates from another dead rat. So no self-farming rats. No reseting the whole pack.

You get a new and shiny rat if you kill something that's not your own, or not rat, or it comes from a death of a Stolen/Hamelin/Obedient Wretch.

[Sandwich]

I don't know what I think about this.

[magicpockets]

I don't know what I think about this.

Well thanks for the post anyway

---------- Post added at 07:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 PM ----------

I don't know whether it's simpler or not but this is a weaker cuddle than the originally proposed version since you can play with activation order in case you have some paralized Rats.

Btw MP's proposal is quite nice.

IIRC you don't get an activation if you're paralyzed, you effectively ignore the model when it comes to activating your crew. May be wrong though...

---------- Post added at 07:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------

No disengaging, right, but they do count as possible targets for shooting into melee.

An idea: no activating for a rat guy if it originates from another dead rat. So no self-farming rats. No reseting the whole pack.

You get a new and shiny rat if you kill something that's not your own, or not rat, or it comes from a death of a Stolen/Hamelin/Obedient Wretch.

I think this would unnecessarily complicate it, and this is really about minimising the NPE of rats'r'us activations. Plus I like the idea of not activating the rat you get from a dead non-rat model - that mechanic in itself is unbalanced so this would help limit the impact of it.

Edited June 26, 2012 by magicpockets

[Yosh]

I'm thinking of:

- another kind of marker that would left behind from things killed with blight counter. Rats could gather it up and pass it to the ratcatcher, who could then pump out some new rats maybe

or

- no rats from killing stuff but only if they had blight counter (which brings us to the point of thinking about aHamelin...)

[NinjaBreadMen]

tbh the simplicity of 'Rats do not activate the turn they are summoned' does it for me. If an official fix hasn't been handed down by the time I've got this crew I'll certainly give MP's initial suggestion a fair try: If it makes the game more fun for me and my opponent then I'm all for it! Win or lose

[Kadeton]

At first glance, I don't like it. It seems like it would make it far too easy to lock down the swarm forever by throwing around a few blasts or pulses.

I would prefer a system where the rats aren't treated as individual models for the purposes of activation, but instead form a sort of gestalt swarm that can always activate once and only once per turn, no matter what.

[bashamer]

mindless zombie style ?

[Wulfila]

What about to place all the new rats in the end closing fase? Every mini who has the ability to summon rats from killed rats, receive a counter when rats are killed in his aura, to be placed later.

[Ratty]

IIRC you don't get an activation if you're paralyzed, you effectively ignore the model when it comes to activating your crew. May be wrong though...

Nope you still declare the model in activation order and then you forfeit your activation instead of generating AP. So Paralyse doesn't really work. You can just activate summoned rats as if they were old ones, they just couldn't do anything, but could still be used to draw out activations.

[magicpockets]

^^ Ahh cool, guess I got that from the same place as Stolen being Rare 3 *wink*

Re other feedback -

1. I agree it slows the swarm down, but I think it's fair if your opponents invest AP in achieving that. I kind of like giving people the option to spend AP slowing the swarm if they prefer, rather than not being able to do anything about it. In effect you're giving them a choice, slow the advance down and survive long enough to achieve your schemes or go for the lynch pins and kill the swarm before it gets to you.

2. I don't think inventing more rules/counters is wise as that's adding complication rather than simplifying it - increasing the NPE

3. Also, placing rats in the end closing phase could be difficult as you'd have to track/recall where they were generated or again create a new counter type. Again I'd worry this could add to the NPE

---------- Post added at 09:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------

Definitely an interesting debate though now guys - so glad it's not been railroaded into the usual OP/broken thread

[graeme27uk]

Leveticus has the potential to summon lots of SPA's relatively easy and cheaply. Nicodem the same for MZ's. So what mechanic makes Hamelin different to them?