RotatingPanda Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 I’m sure this is a tired subject but I tried searching the boards for solace, comfort and companionship on the subject and couldn’t find any. Not to say they don’t exist, just that I couldn’t find them. Before I begin my little essay, some background on our group. The crews that get played are Dreamer/LCB, Hoffman, Kirai, Lady Justice, Lilith, Lucius, Ophelia, Pandora, Perdita, Ramos, Rasputina, Seamus, Viktorias, and Von Schill. We’re predominantly casual players with a few highly competitive players among us. The “vets” among us (two of us) have been playing for about a year, the rest of the players about 6 months. So, I’ve experienced Dreamer and Kirai, largely considered very, very good masters (I play Pandora so I’m not counting her) and yet, I consistently have the least fun playing against Perdita and the Ortegas. Also, we have no Hamelin and our group has a verbal agreement that no one will collect him as long as he exists in his current state. Also, it’s worth noting in the only two games I’ve played against her, I’ve won, so this is certainly not a statement of “Perdita is OP/unbeatable”, rather a criticism of how her design makes me feel when she’s on the board across from me. Anyway, back to the teenage gunslinger, my issue is that she’s like the superhero of the setting because she can do everything well, has no obvious weaknesses and seems to have a direct counter to everything in the game. 1. Can do everything well. She has a Wk of 6, which is higher than every other Master in the game and tied with Lilith. Her Cg (which she admittedly won’t use often) is 10, higher than every other Master. Her Wp is 7, meaning only Zoraida, Dreamer, Leveticus and Hamelin have higher, and this is on top of her having See the Unseen and Immune to Influence. Her Ca is 7, meaning only Ramos is higher and actual “spell casters” like Pandora, Dreamer and Kiria have lower and she’s on par with all of the other non-Ramos “spell casters” in the game. Df 8, same as Lilith. Not much needs to be said on this. Wd 8. One of the very few categories she does not excel in. I’ll address this more under “No Obvious Weaknesses” Cb 7 for all attacks. Severe damage of 5, 6 with Critical strike. So, she is faster than everyone, has better Wp than almost everyone, has better Df than everyone, hits as well or better than everyone and can do almost as much severe damage as everyone. It’s like a D&D character with 18s in almost every score. 2. No Obvious Weaknesses So, the only things on her that look like weaknesses are her Wd 8 and SS Cache 2. But with her incredibly high Wp and Df, plus Immune to Influence, Evasive 2, Spellbreaker, Faster’n You and Quick Draw, it is difficult to find things that hurt her, difficult to hurt with those things and it can be punishing to even try. 3. Counters to Everything Almost every possible situation she can be put into, she has a counter to. Hide in cover? Bullet Bending. AoEs? Evasive 2. Draws a poor hand? Hero’s Gamble. Better at ranged, charge her in melee? Gunfighter, Quick Draw, Obey (Non-Master only, I realize), Execute. Many, many other situations? Obey. Seriously, I get why this is Zoraida’s trick. Thematic, flavorful, interesting. But why does the teenage gunslinger need/get it? Most status effects on her or her crew? Spellbreaker. Terrifying? Well, this one can actually affect her but she still has a Wp 7. And all of this is on top of a very strong crew in the Ortegas to begin with + Companion. Conclusion Maybe it’s just my crews that have a hard time with her (Lady J, Rasputina, Pandora, Seamus) and I think our group doesn’t use enough terrain so there’s usually pretty big firing lanes. But again, I can beat her and those ornery Ortegas, I just don’t enjoy playing against them because it always feels like whatever I plan, whatever tricks my Master has, Perdita will have an answer to it. So, why did I write this? Well, for insight from those of you far more experienced with me. I'm not looking for strategies to beat her, I can do that. I'm maybe looking for some insight, feedback or ideas on how she is supposed to be balanced or hypothesis behind the design philosophy of making her so damn good. Or maybe just a hug and a pat on the head... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 After the first sentence i sum it all up at the end so the big block may not be something of any use:) Her main weakness' are the low cache as you said, and that her crew is often card dependant (she has a solution to a bad hand but no guarantee to fix it) and suit dependant, as her obey requires a Mask to cast (totem does not but requires a 10+ so still expensive. And ok her models are ether paired or hunter at range, but if you stand in cover, they get no positive flips to hit and so cheating is often needed to get a decent hit so her hand can drain fast, meaning if you activate your big hitters later in the turn, ok she has DF 8 but finds it harder to cheat. It just means you must suffer some damage first. Her crew is high damage, that is all. She can do a lot her self as you pointed out, but primeraly all her crew do is lots of damage. So you need to select when to take it to give yourself the best chance of having a decent chance of hitting her afterwards and she dies fast. Or take things with triggers like Headshot ect and drain her hand fast on anything and again she becomes much easier to hit or drains her resources. Basically in short, you select where she does the damage to your crew yourself and cheat where you are not ready to take any damage. And do whatever you can to drain her hand for beating her (as you said you can do) But her crew is slow and only tends to do damage, bar the watcher, so she needs to be able to do a lot herself to make up for it, imo. ---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ---------- After the first sentence i sum it all up at the end so the big block may not be something of any use:) Her main weakness' are the low cache as you said, and that her crew is often card dependant (she has a solution to a bad hand but no guarantee to fix it) and suit dependant, as her obey requires a Mask to cast (totem does not but requires a 10+ so still expensive. And ok her models are ether paired or hunter at range, but if you stand in cover, they get no positive flips to hit and so cheating is often needed to get a decent hit so her hand can drain fast, meaning if you activate your big hitters later in the turn, ok she has DF 8 but finds it harder to cheat. It just means you must suffer some damage first. Her crew is high damage, that is all. She can do a lot her self as you pointed out, but primeraly all her crew do is lots of damage. So you need to select when to take it to give yourself the best chance of having a decent chance of hitting her afterwards and she dies fast. Or take things with triggers like Headshot ect and drain her hand fast on anything and again she becomes much easier to hit or drains her resources. Basically in short, you select where she does the damage to your crew yourself and cheat where you are not ready to take any damage. And do whatever you can to drain her hand for beating her (as you said you can do) But her crew is slow and only tends to do damage, bar the watcher, so she needs to be able to do a lot herself to make up for it, imo. ---------- Post added at 09:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ---------- sorry for the double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordZombie Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Seem like the old saying is true, "gunlines are not funlines". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastDinosaur Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Ah a twist.. Usually what's been said on these boards throughout the life of Malifaux is: "I’ve won, so this is certainly not a statement of “Pandora is OP/unbeatable”, rather a criticism of how her design makes me feel when she’s on the board across from me." One of the Masters you play, food for thought, eh.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Her weaknesses are that she has no way of dealing models with high armor or spirit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunce002917 Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 What I've learned from my loss using Perdita: Kill off her support minions like Nino, Austringers and etc Force her to use up her SS being it from preventing wounds/healing flips. Cover would force her to bring down her Cb and/or focus her strikes. Get in melee and hack away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Just press her... Df8 is good but she'll need her SS to really stay alive. Enough attacks and she'll use them all up and once you manage to hit her she'll drop dead in seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadfan Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Low SS isn't a weakness. All masters can run 8 SS if they want. Having an SS of 2 instead of 4 doesn't mean you're actually 2 SS behind, it just means your crew might be microscopically smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 A small SS cache means to have a large cache, you're going to be down a model or two. That's a pretty big deal. Also, to OP, you mentioned your club doesn't use enough terrain. Put a few big pieces out that block LOS and the game changes immensely. She's a lot less good when she can't shoot whatever she feels like whenever she feels like. Line of sight blocking terrain means you can buy time to get away and hide/get cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimee_darling Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Try getting her in Melee with a heavy hitter. I did well against Perdita in a game with my husband by playing Rasputina. I brought Snowstorm, walked him and an ice gamin up to Perdita and just beat on her until Snowstorm died, doing 4 Dg to everything within 2. That finished off Perdita and two other Ortegas. Edited June 19, 2012 by aimee_darling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requirement Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 CrazyCarl is right. As an occasional Perdita player, blocking terrain really affects that game. You can only put Nino and Perdita in a few places, Santiago is harder to get into a position where you are comfortable to let him take wounds, and Francisco is basically (even more) useless. Playing with the recommended terrain amount is a huge game changer, even for non-ranged crews, and is part of what makes Raspy and Lilith (well, Nephilim) decently powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumb Luck Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 Eight wounds is a weakness. So is putting stones into your cache from her points. Less points on the board. As for a gunline, the Ortega gunline is much of a line as it is a few flecks of spittle. Now ... for a real line, I would suggest looking at Ophelia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrocky Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 part of what makes Raspy ... decently powerful. :| Really...? Raspy =/= powerful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunce002917 Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 Well, Perdita would be more annoying with 2 Guild Austringers... now, LOS is not an issue plus she could obey them for an extra Raptor attack! just like Angry Birds against pigs...caw caw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigkid Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 At least her attacks aren't 'paired'.... Obey. Seriously, I get why this is Zoraida’s trick. Thematic, flavorful, interesting. But why does the teenage gunslinger need/get it? Pert teenage breasts?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requirement Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 :| Really...? Raspy =/= powerful Hahaha. Fair. Bouncing spells off minions is powerful, Raspy just might not be the best at delivering said bouncing abilities. Situational power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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