ravenborne Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 Seriously, does anyone here not try to get 8 or close to 8 stones for Nicodem to drop Rigor Mortis everywhere possible? (If he is not surrounded by Immune to Influence annoying constructs...) That's an excellent point. Personally, I would be happier with Nicodem if Rigor Mortis required a second crow, and Reanimator required only one. I just went back today and read some of the stories, and Nicodem was summoning undead hordes, not paralyze spamming everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmikehill Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 I can totally understand your frustration with how difficult it can be to summon models with Seamus and Nicodem. But bear in mind they do have access to some very good summoning targets. Seamus can summon Rotten Belles which are significant models that have an almost auto cast lure, hard to wound, and a slow to die action. Nicodem can summon Belles as well as Punk Zombies which are a high combat on paired weapons with hard to wound and slow to die. I'm honestly not complaining about these models nor am I trying to say that using high crows is a much needed cost to summon these figures, I'm more or less trying to say that although you do have a high penalty for summoning you do get some pretty decent models for the cost. What I think might work could be a totem model that all masters could use that could give a buff or a suit to either ca or cb, that way you can land specific triggers easier without sacrificing your hand. The masters who would use this most would be Seamus and Nicodem. I'm not too sure on McMourning, I haven't seen much of him on the other side of the table. Now! Before I get off my soapbox, who do I talk to about Nekima and making her a viable Lilith option again?:Smug_Puppet2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 Personally, I would be happier with Nicodem if Rigor Mortis required a second crow, and Reanimator required only one. Not sure I would care for that... SO MUCH of Nicodem, at least when I play him, revolves around locking down key models. I would wonder about a wound/blood component though, similar to Kirai. ---------- Post added at 09:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 AM ---------- What I think might work could be a totem model that all masters could use that could give a buff or a suit to either ca or cb, that way you can land specific triggers easier without sacrificing your hand. I like that idea a lot and feel like we could kill two birds with one stone. Give that ability to Carrion Effigy!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmikehill Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 I like that idea a lot and feel like we could kill two birds with one stone. Give that ability to Carrion Effigy!!! Agreed! The main target of the totem (or effigy) would be for Masters who see a totem option as "meh" and use this as an auto include. While masters like Kirai and McMourning already have their totems which are also best options for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 I like the idea for changing carrion effigy. As is he can be great in a colloid list but in a resser list he's kinda trash and I have never found a time where I would want to not only take him at 4SS but also give up the ability to take a totem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 Arcanists have similar problems, sure...but what they do have that Rezzers do not is the ability to dish out serious amounts of damage. Really? I'd actually argue green and blue are about on par for damage output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) One last post (for a while) then I must get some work done. Damage is a real Rezzer problem, and some strategies and schemes just require it to be dished out. This is supposed to be balanced with survivability, but it doesn't really work out. Here are two experiences with Molly to illustrate how absurd this can be. My first game with Molly, I played her with Seamus. So I've got these two iconic characters together and I am all excited. So I look at the cards and start realizing what a support model Molly really is. I also realize that I have not near enough crows to make use of most of her and Seamus' abilities together. But wait! Molly has an awesome ability that requires a mask, cool. And she cannot do much damage, but the mad hatter has a big gun. So I cast Imbue Vigor on Seamus. He runs up 7 inches, shoots something for 7 damage, then hops back behind cover. Hey, he can only shoot this gun once, and we all know not to get Seamus too close to nasty things. Now this was 3 AP + 1 AP from Molly to get me 7 damage. I also had to use a SS. Later that game Lady J slaughtered Seamus for daring to try and use his 7 movement to get near close to her. And I should add, that in a bit of ridiculous irony, Necrotic Spray ended up damaging only Seamus since he was the only living model near Molly. Now sure I could have played these two better together, and I am not trying to invite "you should do this with Molly and Seamus, not that.." posts. 6 months later... I got out Molly again because I am now playing Levi and I was actually thinking, "ooh she can Whispered Secret Levi's Unnatural Wasting. this could be fun," in addition to making him faster with Imbue Vigor. Molly goes and takes Unnatural Wasting and gives Levi +3 walk. When Levi activates, he has already been pulled forward 6 inches by a Belle. He uses Necromantic Sacrifice to get another 6 inches, and is now 18 inches across the table with three AP left. He then proceeded to slaughter something, a Gun Smith I think. Then there he is sitting at one wound in the center of the table, and I dont even care because unlike Seamus who had to waste AP to avoid getting killed, Levi is supposed to Die. I rinsed and repeated this process and tabled my opponent. I have never tabled anyone in Malifaux with Rezzers. I should add that it wasn't even my goal to table my opponent, but it sure solved a lot of problems for me. ---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 AM ---------- Really? I'd actually argue green and blue are about on par for damage output. I would need to go get some examples, but it seems to me that the cheaper models have a higher weak damage, and that means you don't need to cheat high cards all the time. Cheating cards to increase damage is a serious resource problem as I am sure you are aware. Rezzers have a lot of models that can only reliably do 1 or 2 damage. And that requires them to spend AP to get close because they are slow and mostly melee. Edited June 20, 2012 by ravenborne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boscotopia Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 Where is our Resser girl? Kirai is not a true Resser; I love her spirits but I want Canine Remains and Punk Zombies, Necropunks, Night Terrors, etc....... What about a Female Henchman or Master that has access to all of the minions the other Ressers do? Possible options: A) Why not expand Molly's list and/or allow her to take any undead at a 1 SS extra cost? Bring another Master in that is a Female Resser. I know I am not the first to post this and I know the Ressers need a boost and I think that instead of doing errata like crazy, why not bring in someone that is already "fixed"? I am not a fan of totems carrying the extra suit only because, if you ever played Ramos, the totem is the first thing to die and you just wasted 2-4 SS and you are back to square one. It is a good option to add to the Carrion Effigy to make it a more alluring choice but is far from a summon fix. Ressers summon - that is all they have. Why should they not be able to do it easily? Maybe, if you do not fix the suit, raise their Ca so there is a better chance of pulling the card they need. All ideas form a guy who really wants to join the ranks of the Ressers but sees more viability in Neverborn and Guild. I have Canine Remains that just sit on my shelf, waiting .............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmikehill Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) Lacking damage output with Seamus? Have you tried using Bete Noir? Using a Belle or Doxy as a walking vessel for her then running into the enemy lines with depraved tactics can shatter a force. She also gets fast when she kills something. She does need a high card to bury if somebody does manage to kill her but it's not an easy task. I've played some pretty nasty Seamus armies and they do some pretty decent amounts of damage. I don't think damage output is the issue on the topic of Ressers honestly. Edited June 20, 2012 by notmikehill I can't spell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustcrusher Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 There are two things that I do NOT believe: 1. That Dead Heat will teach anything about the balance of factions. If Ressers manage to trail far behind the other factions, or if the corporeal Ressers do really really well in games where they have a free extra :crows but fare poorly otherwise, that wouldn't change your mind at all? OK, fine, so Dead Heat is not likely to give solid evidence of faction (im)balance, but the possibility is still there. But hey, what do I know, I'm probably the worst Resser player here. I am definitely in the camp that thinks rezzers could use a little help in very specific areas like: 1. strats and schemes for which speed > all 2. The SS pools of Nicodem and Seamus are CRIPPLING. As am I. Give Seamus at least 4 and Nicodem at least 6 (surely they can strip victims/recently deceased of valuables, can they not?). I'm also down for a couple of endurance-based strategies where the fragile speedsters aren't the best by default. To piggy back Ratty, there is a lot of feel to resser crew that only comes from board time. It takes seeing it on the table over and over again to really understand the rythme of a game....If you've ever played chess a lot of resser tempo play is about thinking a few moves ahead. <sigh> looks like I'll have to start playing chess then. Did I mention I don't like chess? It's one of those games where my pinball machine of a brain is a huge hindrance :Sad_Puppet2: I like that idea a lot and feel like we could kill two birds with one stone. Give that ability to Carrion Effigy!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boscotopia Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 Also, give the Viks some SS. A 0 pool? Really? Yes, you get 2 Masters, but they are not Dreamer level Masters. It is not like having Lilith and Lady J. I play 25 SS games and I get to take 3 models just so I have 8 SS to keep my supposedly great masters alive. Bump up their Df to 8 or give them a better Wk/Cg or some other abilities so they are something more than overpriced Ronin and actually worth taking. I love Malifaux and I love you guys at Wyrd, but you need to show your original Masters some love and give them a makeover considering they are going up against greats like Dreamer, Hamlin, Pandora, and Collette. Again, Some more Female Masters! I got my girlfriend playing because of the Viks and I know a lot more gamer girls will ditch the other mini games if the female presence is commanding. Molly was a step back, guys. Please give Molly some more choices. PLEASE!!!!!! You and everyone in the Malifaux community rocks. Best Forums I have ever been on. This is a really great game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmikehill Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 *Peers up from the trenches* Resser rant over? Anyways! I'd like to (if possible) get some dialog going on Nekima. Can we expect any changes aside from the adjustment to Nephilim Heart? As developers, what was your core goal when creating her, Beatstick, Support? What warrants the cost? Aside from that, those are my only gripes. With mention of the Viki's I've seen players win tournaments with them and Von Shill in the mix. I think they're far from getting a makeover, but I see them as more competitive then others might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 My biggest disappointment with the Viks is that the necessity of taking a max cache and certain key models in a competitive setting (Von Schill and a Librarian by default) means that there is very little variety of play. In game, they tend to brutally slaughter everyone, so I have no problems with their ability to win games. I just don't get to see any of their other choices unless I'm playing purely for fun, since switching out either or both of their basic support models means reducing the cost-effectiveness of the crew in every situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmp_mydog Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 Seriously, does anyone here not try to get 8 or close to 8 stones for Nicodem to drop Rigor Mortis everywhere possible? (If he is not surrounded by Immune to Influence annoying constructs...) Honestly for all Res Masters I think you need to have the max cache. If I play a game with fewer than 6-7 stones, the number of times you fail to cast or summon is painful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) If Ressers manage to trail far behind the other factions, or if the corporeal Ressers do really really well in games where they have a free extra :crows but fare poorly otherwise, that wouldn't change your mind at all? Well, I should have been specific, I suppose. For starters, I think that rezzers will do well in the defense of Deadwalks City because of the corpses laying around more than the :crows searching, although that will certainly be great too. I mostly meant that Dead Heat will not teach about balance because there is no relative comparisons of who is playing one another. Most of my games are likely to be against my son and, at least for now, I am still better than him. (Although he has started reading the forums a lot and also giving closer consideration to crew construction and strats/schemes, so the gap is closing, as evidenced by him WINNING our first Dead Heat match) "Balance" is tough to sort out anyway, but, IMO, large collections of tournament results are the closest we have to understanding where things stand. Each tournament is a fixed group and while round-robin would be best to understand faction/master scores across all other opponents within a tourney, some things can still be learned by looking at the consistent top factions. Mind you, I simply said that tournaments are the CLOSEST to understanding that we have because individual player skill is still a huge (Perhaps largest) determiner. When looking at those same results across tournaments and seeing some of the same individuals in the top 4-6 with different factions in different tournaments and you can see where the individual players really drive much of the results. That is exactly why I was interested in something like Calmdown's rezzer thread. I have no way of gauging the relative player skill of England vs. US, but if I simply go by results, he sounds like a strong player. I had hoped he would bring a Nicodem or a Seamus to a larger tournament and hopefully place well, putting an end to the debate by discovering some means of making them more competitive than the rest of us have managed. Sadly, that did not happen. Luckily for me, it matters much less than it seems to for other people because I still feel the the relative "power" difference is not enough to regularly impact most of my games. I am more impacted when models that I REALLY REALLY want to use more often, like the Carrion Effigy and Rafkin, are so difficult to get any sort of consistent use out of. I can use those points for models that give me more, so its not really a "faction-balance" issue as much as it is sadness that I am knowingly crippling myself to play models I really like. (Yet, I still do. ) ---------- Post added at 10:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ---------- Also, give the Viks some SS. A 0 pool? Really? Yes, you get 2 Masters, but they are not Dreamer level Masters. How about this as a deal... The year that the Viks do NOT win Adepticon, they can have some Soul Stones... Ok? Edited June 20, 2012 by Gruesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 Start your own thread if you want to fix the Viks and Nekemia! But seriously, the Viks are awesome. If anything Von Schill needs a cuddle bat, but the designers cannot cuddle Von Schill because he will take away the bat and beat the designers silly with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmikehill Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 Start your own thread if you want to fix the Viks and Nekemia! But seriously, the Viks are awesome. If anything Von Schill needs a cuddle bat, but the designers cannot cuddle Von Schill because he will take away the bat and beat the designers silly with it. Well in all my years! I kid I kid! We don't talk about trying to cuddle Von Schill... unless we all want Hulkamania to finally come to Malifaux..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 If Von Schill were cuddled, it would be self imposed restrictions to allow other models the chance to feel like they are doing well. (Maybe that should be in the Chuck Norris thread ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustcrusher Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 Well said, Gruesome. I was also a bit bummed out when Calmdown decided he was bored with Ressers. Was hoping perhaps some detailed reports and turn-by-turn analysis would help things click for me. Again, Some more Female Masters! I got my girlfriend playing because of the Viks and I know a lot more gamer girls will ditch the other mini games if the female presence is commanding. Molly was a step back, guys. Please give Molly some more choices. PLEASE!!!!!! Wait- hang on a second here... Lady Justice, Perdita Ortega, Sonnia Criid, Rasputina, Colette DuBois, Kaeris, Kirai Ankoku, Molly Squidpiddge, Lilith, Pandora, Zoraida, the Viktorias, and Ophelia LaCroix aren't enough for you? While I agree with your opinion of Molly (poor Molly-girl...), literally half of the Masters and Henchmen are female. Seriously, it's split right down the middle gender-wise right now, and there's an outside chance Misaki will be added to the list. One of the things I love about Malifaux is that it's one of the most gender-equal tabletop games out there. Funny how a game that treats female characters and models as more than just eye candy seems to have a lot more women as fans, eh? I'll save the long form version of it for my Wyrd-blog. Well in all my years! I kid I kid! We don't talk about trying to cuddle Von Schill... unless we all want Hulkamania to finally come to Malifaux..... "And what'cha gonna do, Malifaux...what'cha gonna do when Hul-er, Von Schill and his Hulka- um, I mean, his Freikorps RUN WILD ON YOUUU!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ledgem Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 We all know the REAL reason Von Schill won't get cuddled is because of all his influencial ties. I know your real name Von Schill, or should I say REVOLVER OCELOT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierowmaniac Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 Possible options: A) Why not expand Molly's list and/or allow her to take any undead at a 1 SS extra cost? Lets just wait till Gencon and see what she gets in her 'story encounter' box(or boxes!). Looking forward to those more than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boscotopia Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 My request was for a female Resser....... a true Resser, not the Ghost Whisperer (Yes, Kirai is awesome). I know there are plenty of female Masters, that was not the complaint. Wyrd is listening and I am asking and saying there is a market for a female Resser who can take Canine Remains, Punk Zombies, Night Terrors, Necropunks, et al. ---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ---------- Lets just wait till Gencon and see what she gets in her 'story encounter' box(or boxes!). Looking forward to those more than anything. Please, please, please be something good. She could be awesome if given a little more clout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Promote Bette Noir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnivision6 Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I still don't get this "kirai isn't a rezzer" talk. She discards the body and uses the spirit. It looks like most use what they think they "should" use. Try Kirai with some seishin, her totem, then build to strat and scheme. You may be surprised by how much of a rezzer she feels like. I saw a thread in the neverborn section about taking sorrows with Lilith. Most posters nay sayed with theoryfaux. The player said he was having fun and success with it. Try different thing people. Just because a few loud voices discourage most of this game doesn't mean everyone has to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I still don't get this "kirai isn't a rezzer" talk. She discards the body and uses the spirit. It looks like most use what they think they "should" use. Try Kirai with some seishin, her totem, then build to strat and scheme. You may be surprised by how much of a rezzer she feels like. I saw a thread in the neverborn section about taking sorrows with Lilith. Most posters nay sayed with theoryfaux. The player said he was having fun and success with it. Try different thing people. Just because a few loud voices discourage most of this game doesn't mean everyone has to. He is probably asking for that from a flavour standpoint. It's just not the same theme wise to play with moving carcasses than with spooky spirits and there is also the expansion part that Kirai pretty much requires a full crew for herself with very little overlap with the other masters. Since my first crew was Kirai, I have a full set of everything in there except a second shikome and a second blister of gakis, but my Seamus list doesn't use any of that, an Onryo at most. Yet when I do expand to nicodem or McMourning I can use the rotten belles, bete noir, Molly and punk zombies I already have at hand. Anyway, Kirai is a resser and probably the one that ressurrects the most, but she ain't playing with zombies. Also, have huge hopes for Molly's expansion pack/packs, really want to like her and really want to try to fit her in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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