Killing Kirai Conundrum

[RotatingPanda]

So, my local club is not particularly competitive and we mostly play thematic lists so we've been wracking our brains about the Kirai issue. With all of her Seishin shenanigans, our Hoffman player and Perdita player feel utterly defenesless against her, especially when she takes bodyguard for 2 easy VP.

Thoughts and suggestions? How do non-casting crews with little to no access to magic weapons deal with her? Especially Hoffman, Perdita, Lady J, and Seamus?

[nilus]

Guild players take an Exorcist. He has a magic weapon and can give other models melee weapons magical.

You can also hire some Mercenaries with Magic weapons, such as Ronin.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Kill her Seishin.

And Lost Love.

[osoi]

Hoffman's spell Open circuit can cause a bit of pain for Kirai, and yes take and Exorcist and Witchlings.

As for Seamus I tend to bring The Hanged and Madame Sybelle both have ranged damaging spells and generally a Kirai crew isnt high in damage output so they tank quite nicely. Plus I cast Live for Pain a lot with Seamus

[Gollum528]

I nevder thought about it before but a hanged can wreck Kirai's world if successful. Reducing half her wds without the ability to heal is devastating.

[RotatingPanda]

Hmmm. See, the concern we have is 5 Seishin + Lost Love = several turns committed to just dealing with her. Now, I know the mantra on here is "play your strategy" and that's reasonable but when you get Claim Jump, Contain Power, or Slaughter, it becomes a completely negative play experience.

Now, as I said, we play thematic lists and we don't play faction to faction (as the game is balanced, I get that) so maybe there's just no real solution here. Our Hoffman player frequently runs Hoffman, Watcher, SS Miner, Ryle and a Steampunk Arachnid Swarm; he is utterly powerless against Kirai. I suppose the hard truth is that's just the way it's going to be.

[NinjaBreadMen]

I nevder thought about it before but a hanged can wreck Kirai's world if successful. Reducing half her wds without the ability to heal is devastating.

The Hanged can burn through her SS's nicely, I've got mine killed in the past to reduce Kirai to 0ss by forcing her to resist his spells, so the rest of my crew could fight her on a more level ground. It's worth a look in anyway

[Kadeton]

Just kill the Seishin, over and over, from range. Every time one dies, Kirai loses a wound, and you only need to inflict 3 wounds (non-magical, through Spirit) to kill one - Perdita's family is insanely good at this, not to mention that Papa will generally force a Seishin to sacrifice itself just by activating (Perdita too, if there's the possibility of making Papa Obey). That player should remember to ask, every time they activate one of those models within threat range, "Would you like to sacrifice a Seishin?" If the Kirai player does, go do something else, like get into a good position. If they don't, blow them sky-high, kill all their Seishin and leave Kirai crippled.

Kirai's weakness is that she has to be close to the action in order to keep her Seishin up, because she needs them to summon, but prefers to be out of melee. This makes it easier for the Family, or models like Ryle, to just shoot the heck out of her Seishin and drain her wounds, stopping her from summoning without spending a lot of effort to heal first. If you can catch her before she's activated her Beacon, you can just wipe out the Seishin and there's nothing she can do about it - at which point, she's very vulnerable. It's not generally worth engaging her in melee - save your heavy hitters for killing Ikiryo, since that will hurt her even further.

Kirai is good, but she's certainly not unbeatable. If people are really struggling with her, they might want to bring in some new models specifically to fight against her crew - the Exorcist is the main one for the Guild. The Ressers (especially Seamus due to his crappy summoning) have a harder time of it, since they're almost entirely melee-based, but Avatar Seamus can make quite a go of it.

[Gensuke626]

Now, as I said, we play thematic lists and we don't play faction to faction (as the game is balanced, I get that) so maybe there's just no real solution here. Our Hoffman player frequently runs Hoffman, Watcher, SS Miner, Ryle and a Steampunk Arachnid Swarm; he is utterly powerless against Kirai. I suppose the hard truth is that's just the way it's going to be.

Wait...He runs Ryle AND SS miner? Doesn't that break the rule of only having 1 Special Forces type per crew?

[Omenbringer]

Also threaten lots of Blasts, Auras, and Pulses, she has to sacrifice a Seishin everytime one of your models activates in order to prevent them (and a lot of Pulses and Auras tend to also be magical). She cant prevent them going away with Seishin Beacon because they aren't killed but sacrificed, that 0 action only effects Fragile Connection when the Seishin is killed.

[RotatingPanda]

See, we aren't the best at wrapping our heads around the rules and figuring out "tricks" and the like so I usually come here to get the communities feedback (thanks, as always!). I kept insisting that blasts would work but they weren't buying it. Although it's good to know, flat-out, that melee is not an ideal situation.

As for SS Miner and Ryle, I dunno? I'll have to look into that for him, although the way it sounds, yes, it should be illegal?

[Gensuke626]

I'm 90% certain that Ryle + SS miner is illegal.

That said if your Hoffman player is unwilling to use models that are not part of Hoffman's 'Theme' then I'm not sure what he can do other than try to bring the hardest hitting bots he can find to just punch through Kirai's spirit. I mean...if he had Lazarus it might not be so bad....but Lazarus doesn't work for Guild.

[Omenbringer]

the Exorcist is the main one for the Guild.

The only problem with the Exorcist is that he is pretty squishy and going to be target number one for the Ikiryo or Shikome. Really wished he made the Ranged weapons magical as well.

[RotatingPanda]

I get it with the Exorcist though? Think about Kirai if Perdita and her entire family got magical weapons? I don't see the spirit crew lasting more than two turns...

And there's no reason you can't take two exorcists. I may pick up a second one if it ever gets an alternate sculpt (I'm kind of hoping every model gets alts eventually.)

[Omenbringer]

I get it with the Exorcist though? Think about Kirai if Perdita and her entire family got magical weapons? I don't see the spirit crew lasting more than two turns...

Ya that would be pretty sick, however I dont think the Ortegas have many problems with Kirai as is.

And there's no reason you can't take two exorcists. I may pick up a second one if it ever gets an alternate sculpt (I'm kind of hoping every model gets alts eventually.)

Except for SS, bringing 2 for redundancy means less of the models he boosts.

[RotatingPanda]

I dont think the Ortegas have many problems with Kirai as is.

That's what everyone says but our local Perdita player has a helluva time. Perhaps he's just not used to fighting Kirai and hasn't figured out her tricks.

Except for SS, bringing 2 for redundancy means less of the models he boosts.

True, for sure, but I run a very thematic Lady J crew (a very Death Marshal heavy crew) so, for me at least, two Exorcists is fine. They'll mostly just be boosting Lady J so she can wreck face anyway.

But yes, Kirai does represent a significant threat on the table. I'm far more scared of facing her than many, many other Masters. Hence why I started this thread

[Golden]

Your Hoffman player is missing the enforcer of Hoffman's crew. The peacekeeper. It doesn't get more thematic than that. He will add mobility and damage potential to your friend's crew, don't leave home without it.

Next, 2 words, Open Circuit. Peacekeeper drags Hoffman 15 inches into threat range of Kirai's spirit ball and when you activate him you cast it up to 3 times at 3 points of spell damage apiece = bad day for Kirai.

[RotatingPanda]

But couldn't the Kirai player just use the Seishin's Spirit Sacrifice and laugh at Hoffman?

[Gensuke626]

But couldn't the Kirai player just use the Seishin's Spirit Sacrifice and laugh at Hoffman?

As long as Kirai's player sees it coming and actually sacrifices the Seishin at the beginning of Hoffman's activation...yes. As soon as Hoffman begins to take his first action, the chance to Spirit Sacrifice is lost.

That said, if you rush in with peacekeeper, activate Hoffman and get him within about...4-5" of Kirai along a direct path and she does use spirit sacrifice I'd do this...

0 action, Tap Power - Gain fast and give Peacekeeper slow.

1 action, Machine Puppet - Target Peacekeeper, Fire Chain Spear at Kirai. Trigger Drag. As the Seishin are Spirits, Kirai will always be dragged 4" toward Peacekeeper since Spirits don't block movement.

1 action, Machine Puppet - Target Hoffman. Attack Kirai with Soulstone Torch. Trigger Critical strike. Cb6 vs df 2 means it's more than likely Hoffman will hit. 4 damage minimum (2 if Kirai is a spirit). Theoretical max damage of 15 (but don't count on it. That requires hitting with 3 Rams and pulling the Red Joker and another Severe for damage.)

1 Action, Machine Puppet - Target Hoffman. Attack Kirai With torch again.

0 Action, Assimilate - Target Peacekeeper, give Hoffman Terrifying 12.

Assuming Kirai isn't permanently a Spirit and has not gone yet, if she survives this attack, she will be slow and in the threat ranges of 2 Terrifying 12 models when she activates, and her Wp is not terribly good. If she has gone already and isn't a spirit permanently, then her next activation will force her to take 1 Terrifying 12 test, and she may decide to run away.

I'm about 90% certain that Hoffman can machine puppet himself, but the Rules Marshals may have said something else when I wasn't looking.

[RotatingPanda]

Oh wise Wyrd forums! Having a discussion with a friend (another one of those "we don't get the tricks" discussions).

How would you go about killing Kirai with a Perdita/Family crew? Someone said it isn't really hard for her but other than activating everyone and shooting a lot and hoping for the best, we don't have any theories...

[Kadeton]

So Perdita's strategy is basically the same as when she's facing anyone else: shoot the heck out of everything. Against Kirai, this works because everything you kill hurts Kirai in some way - killing a Seishin takes a wound off her, killing Ikiryo hurts her control hand, killing Datsue-ba hurts her ability to heal, etc.

Most of the Family can almost guarantee a kill on a Seishin with every shot - a Peacebringer with critical strike kills one with its weak damage, and they all have good Cb or paired weapons compared to a Seishin's Df 4. If Kirai ever forgets to use Seishin Beacon, or is within threat range before her activation, it's open season on Seishin and they won't be coming back, leaving Kirai all alone and extremely vulnerable.

If you have Perdita, Francisco, Santiago, Nino and Papa all moving together in a companionable pack (Papa on the fringe so as not to kill them all when he dies, natch), combining their fire against Kirai's Seishin is going to be devastating. Killing a lot of Seishin means Kirai will either have very few Seishin, very few Wounds, or most likely both. When you activate Papa in the companion chain, that immediately sacrifices a Seishin pretty much automatically, and similarly if Perdita activates - if the Kirai player doesn't use Spirit Sacrifice at both these times, Papa goes off (through Obey if it's Perdita's activation) and kills everything.

Obviously all of this doesn't take place in a vacuum - Ikiryo will probably be in your face, perhaps with a Shikome - but if that's the case, it also means that Kirai will be somewhere nearby, with around 4 wounds remaining, and down at least 1-2 Seishin. Up close, the Family severely out-matches Kirai in pure killing power.

Of course, the Kirai player can choose not to play aggressively, especially if their strategy and schemes don't call for it. Like most Book 1 vs Book 2 matchups, they can just avoid you if they feel like it, and there's not much you can do to bring down Kirai herself if she refuses to engage - just pursue your own schemes and try to deny the opponent's, and kill targets of opportunity when you can.

Anyway, I hope there's a few nuggets of information in there that might be of some use. The basic things to understand are exactly how Kirai's summoning engine works, the fact that she needs both Seishin and Wounds to power it, and the ways in which you can make that summoning cycle fall apart - only once you've exhausted her resources is it possible to take her down. As in any match-up, knowing how the enemy crew works is the first step, so make sure you read up on exactly what Kirai and all her spirit friends can do - that way you can start to plan against it, rather than reacting to it.

[Omenbringer]

But couldn't the Kirai player just use the Seishin's Spirit Sacrifice and laugh at Hoffman?

As Gensuke626 says, Kirai has to Sac the Seishin as soon as your activation starts and before you do anything. Though it may shut down the 's, 's & 's for that activation it also causes her to lose the Seshin because it is sacrificed and not killed (so no spirit anchor). Having multiple models that can provide the above damage types will put her on the defensive very quickly.